Citizenship and I-9 employment verification

[annelizabeth 1]

I work in HR and our company is being bought out. The new owners have instructed me to ensure that everyone fills out a new I-9. I employ lots of aliens and am used to working with all the various forms of allowable documentation.

One of my employees was very recently naturalized and cannot provide the necessary docs because:- A.they took his 'green card' off him during his naturalization; B. He didn't apply for a US passport because he has no intention of ever returning to his homeland and C. he never bothered to have his SSN card replaced with an unrestricted one when he was a PR.

USCIS removed the naturalization certificate from the list of acceptable documents, so he is stymied. And we only have 3 days to process the i-9s.

Moral of the story? Make sure you get the restrictions removed from your SSN card!

[YuAndDan 153]

I-9 stipulates, that a SSN card without the disclaimer and a photo ID like driver's license is acceptable evidence of employment. (List B item 1, and list C item 1) http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/I-9.pdf Or if they have a US passport, it is in List A item 1

A person can get an unrestricted SSN card and should have done that when they got their green-card, they should report any change of immigrations status to SSA. NON-Immigrant --> Immigrant --> Citizen.

If they entered USA on an immigrant visa like IR-1 or CR-1 they will have an unrestricted SSN card.

[payxibka 10,045]

Maybe the PR now USC should re-consider, as a passport is for any international travel not just a return to the "motherland".

[mooninlove 1]

if he does not plan to get a passport, he could consider getting a wallet size passport card that he can bring along with him. and yeah, that's a wake up call for those who does not update their bio after some changes in their immigration status..

[annelizabeth 1]

Maybe the PR now USC should re-consider, as a passport is for any international travel not just a return to the "motherland".

Poor lad doesn't earn enough to travel! Dammit, they never even take time off but prefer to get their meagre vacation paid out.

[NickD 202]

USCIS removed the naturalization certificate from the list of acceptable documents,

Makes sense since the USCIS issued that certificate themselves, and obliviously they don't trust themselves.

But they will accept an unrestricted SS card? The only way he can get that is to show the SS office his naturalization certificate, but since that is dependent on showing the SS his naturalization certificate, why would the USCIS trust that?

And the only way you can get a US passport through the Department of State is to send in the original naturalization certificate, without that, you are dead meat, so if the passport is dependent on the naturalization certificate, why would the USCIS accept that?

Is it possible that the USCIS is smoking crack?

You must live in a state, like WI that serves severe fines to employees for hiring undocumented personnel. So why can't this fellow just check a box stating that he is a USC? That is all our state requires to obtain a driver's license or to register to vote. They don't even want to see the naturalization certificate, but strange, do want to see a green card. Maybe the leaders of our state are also smoking crack.

Maybe instead of trying to reason their thinking, we should join them, and smoke crack too. But for now, think I will soak my head in a bucket of ice water, before my brain explodes. We must elect our officials because we feel sorry for them, because they are too stupid to do anything else.

[lucyrich 20]

USCIS removed the naturalization certificate from the list of acceptable documents,

Makes sense since the USCIS issued that certificate themselves, and obliviously they don't trust themselves.

But they will accept an unrestricted SS card? The only way he can get that is to show the SS office his naturalization certificate, but since that is dependent on showing the SS his naturalization certificate, why would the USCIS trust that?

And the only way you can get a US passport through the Department of State is to send in the original naturalization certificate, without that, you are dead meat, so if the passport is dependent on the naturalization certificate, why would the USCIS accept that?

Is it possible that the USCIS is smoking crack?

You must live in a state, like WI that serves severe fines to employees for hiring undocumented personnel. So why can't this fellow just check a box stating that he is a USC? That is all our state requires to obtain a driver's license or to register to vote. They don't even want to see the naturalization certificate, but strange, do want to see a green card. Maybe the leaders of our state are also smoking crack.

Maybe instead of trying to reason their thinking, we should join them, and smoke crack too. But for now, think I will soak my head in a bucket of ice water, before my brain explodes. We must elect our officials because we feel sorry for them, because they are too stupid to do anything else.

Sure, it's possible the USCIS is smoking crack, but there's at least the possibility of a little bit of logic behind the madness.

Note that for an I-9, the documents establishing identity and eligibility are only shown to the employer. They don't get inspected by a USCIS agent or anyone else from the government.

So the whole I-9 process is only as good as the ability of an employer to spot a fake document. And the employer doesn't necessarily have a huge motivation to find fakes.

Not all employers are well trained in spotting fakes of each type of document. Small employers who only take on a few employees per year may never have a chance to see some of the types of documents they're in charge of validating.

Remember before your wife got a certificate, you were asking what the certificate looked like, and what size it was? It's hard to find info about what a naturalization certificate is supposed to look like, so unless you'd seen one before, how would you go about determining the authenticity of one?

When you use a naturalization certificate in order to get a social security card, driver's license, or passport, the person who examines your naturalization certificate IS a government employee who sees naturalization certificates frequently, and who has experience and training in spotting a fake.

It's similar to the idea that, if a stranger wanted to pay me in foreign currency, I'd refuse, even if they volunteered to cover the cost of currency exchange back to US dollars. The reason I'd refuse is because I have no way of telling genuine foreign bank notes from fake ones. But I DO know how to spot counterfeit US Currency. So I'd tell them to exchange the currency themselves, and bring me back the stuff I know and am familiar with.

You can reasonably argue whether the naturalization certificate should be on the I-9 list, and whether certain documents that ARE on the list ought to be taken off. But it's probably wise that the I-9 list should be a fairly short list of fairly common documents.

Edited October 1, 2008 by lucyrich

[moonhunt 1]

I work in HR and our company is being bought out. The new owners have instructed me to ensure that everyone fills out a new I-9. I employ lots of aliens and am used to working with all the various forms of allowable documentation.

One of my employees was very recently naturalized and cannot provide the necessary docs because:- A.they took his 'green card' off him during his naturalization; B. He didn't apply for a US passport because he has no intention of ever returning to his homeland and C. he never bothered to have his SSN card replaced with an unrestricted one when he was a PR.

USCIS removed the naturalization certificate from the list of acceptable documents, so he is stymied. And we only have 3 days to process the i-9s.

Moral of the story? Make sure you get the restrictions removed from your SSN card!

I-9 shoud stay with the company, so there is no reason for not giving addition days to get US passport or other means.

Usually SSN card plus US driving license should be enough.

He/she should have unrestricted SSN card when he/she got Permanent Resident Card, A.K.A. I-551.

Then all he/she should do is stopping by Social Security Office to update his/her information as US Citizen.

There is no change in SSN card itself, but SSA will update their record, so anybody using E-Verify can see his/her legal status as US Citizen.

But what I'm wondering is why your new employer is asking to renew I-9 ?

I-9 should be kept in HR files, and it should stay there for 3 years from employment start date.

Employees with more than 3 years working history doesn't need to submit I-9 to thier employer.

That's my understanding.

Maybe something was changed after I read I-9 information.

[moonhunt 1]

I went through current I-9.

It said it should be filed when employee is hired.

Acquisition is not considered as new hiring from my understanding.

Also, I-9 said employer should check the employee's working authorization within 3 days of work starting day.

If employee can not provide the required documentation, he/she can provide the receipt of application for required documentation, then provide the required documentation within 90 days.

So I think he/she have enough time to get US passport.

For naturalized US Citizen, US passport is not just travel document.

It is also convenient method to prove that you are US citizen.

It is not easy to carry "the certificate of naturalization" everywhere you need, and if you lost it, it cost a lot.

[NickD 202]

I went through current I-9.

It said it should be filed when employee is hired.

Acquisition is not considered as new hiring from my understanding.

Also, I-9 said employer should check the employee's working authorization within 3 days of work starting day.

If employee can not provide the required documentation, he/she can provide the receipt of application for required documentation, then provide the required documentation within 90 days.

So I think he/she have enough time to get US passport.

For naturalized US Citizen, US passport is not just travel document.

It is also convenient method to prove that you are US citizen.

It is not easy to carry "the certificate of naturalization" everywhere you need, and if you lost it, it cost a lot.

Have to remember we are talking about employment by those legal to work in this country, either by a work visa of some type, an EAD card, a green card, or a USC, are their other ways? Understand their are temporary work permits granted of pickers and other such jobs Americans do not want to do.

Of all the documents, the easiest to counterfeit is the SS card, and prior to around December 2007, at least in our state, the only thing one needed to get a driver's license was an SS card, with no way of the DMV officer knowing whether it was legal or counterfeit, age was a guess on his part, but should be able to tell the difference between a six year old or a 40 year old, the six year old would have to bring in a birth certificate. Our illegals here that have to renew their driver's license are dead meat in that they now need that EAD or PRC, those are not easy to counterfeit. the certificate of naturalization doesn't appear too easy to counterfeit either, at least not in a slop shop.

Nazi Germany during WWII conscripted a group of Russian and Jewish concentration prisoners that were successful in counterfeiting the English pound, needed money for their war effort. Was a greater effort to duplicate US paper currency, but they also succeeded in accomplishing that feat as well, but not very much was circulated as that war ended. Just saying in regards to counterfeiting, may be difficult for a small group of people to accomplish this, but certainly not for a country with vast resources. Was on the news we have at least 3,000 Chinese industrial spies in this country, even caught on by accident leaving O'Hare airport with about 6 million dollars worth of prints. And it's a constant battle for our treasury department to stay ahead of other countries that would like to print our money. Perhaps another reason for inflation and have heard about counterfeits in excess of billions of dollars, but have no idea how they come up with these estimates.

I feel our greatest defense for this country is to really be a melting pot of all cultures, nationalities, and races, and to be nice. Feel at times we are making enemies when we don't have to that will really cause us grief.

[annelizabeth 1]

I went through current I-9.

It said it should be filed when employee is hired.

Acquisition is not considered as new hiring from my understanding.

Also, I-9 said employer should check the employee's working authorization within 3 days of work starting day.

If employee can not provide the required documentation, he/she can provide the receipt of application for required documentation, then provide the required documentation within 90 days.

So I think he/she have enough time to get US passport.

For naturalized US Citizen, US passport is not just travel document.

It is also convenient method to prove that you are US citizen.

It is not easy to carry "the certificate of naturalization" everywhere you need, and if you lost it, it cost a lot.

I argued till I was blue in the face that acquisition did not constitute new hiring but the company lawyers overrode me. Maybe the new owners don't trust us not to have been employing illegals. I know for certain that 100% of my employees are legal. LOL maybe they were worried that I wasn't legal! Now there's an interesting situation - I have to sign my own I-9 as the employer!

[NickD 202]

I went through current I-9.

It said it should be filed when employee is hired.

Acquisition is not considered as new hiring from my understanding.

Also, I-9 said employer should check the employee's working authorization within 3 days of work starting day.

If employee can not provide the required documentation, he/she can provide the receipt of application for required documentation, then provide the required documentation within 90 days.

So I think he/she have enough time to get US passport.

For naturalized US Citizen, US passport is not just travel document.

It is also convenient method to prove that you are US citizen.

It is not easy to carry "the certificate of naturalization" everywhere you need, and if you lost it, it cost a lot.

I argued till I was blue in the face that acquisition did not constitute new hiring but the company lawyers overrode me. Maybe the new owners don't trust us not to have been employing illegals. I know for certain that 100% of my employees are legal. LOL maybe they were worried that I wasn't legal! Now there's an interesting situation - I have to sign my own I-9 as the employer!

Could even ask why it's the employers responsibility to check that all people are here legally, shouldn't this be the responsibility of our overpriced government? Could ask, but won't get an answer. And as Lucyrich pointed out with a good counter argument, private industry is not trained to determine if a document is forged or not, or not even such a document exists. People in our state, both private and government never even heard of a one year extension notice, not to mention a I-551 stamp or a homemade I-94.

We may only represent 5% of the worlds population, but have the worlds largest military budget, shouldn't these guys be protecting our shores? Were you trained in the many work type documents? People in my wife's legal and HR department sure weren't. State passes a law with severe fines to employers, but doesn't back that law with education and training. Wonder if they are even enforcing it like so many other laws on our books. No wonder why many of our companies are leaving this country.

What are your odds of keeping your job after the acquisition? Big deal with takeovers, get rid of management and stretch out what they have.