Defining haram?

[Tunisia216 2]

Any chance of merging this thread and the bikini thread?

i don't think we'd be having any bickering if this was about harems.

[rclouse 0]

The list is interesting.

03. Practising magic

How do you define that? If I pull a rabbit out of my hat, is that magic?

07. Not performing Hajj, while being able to do so

How do you define "ability"? One could cash in their 401K to do it, but that will hurt them later on. But it does make them "able".

Which leads to...

12. Interest(Riba)

Lots of Muslims here have bank accounts (which earn interest) and mortgages (which charge interest). So how does one stay "halal" and own a home, or prepare for retirement?

19. Drinking Khamr (wine)

On the link above, they changed this one to:

19. Drinking alcohol

Now the only references to alcohol I've found in my translation say 1. don't be drunk when you pray, and 2. while drinking wine may have some benefits, the negatives outweigh them so you shouldn't drink wine. How does that expand to all alcoholic beverages being haram? What about the alcohol found in certain medicines? And since hash and heroin aren't mentioned, I guess they're OK?

33. Woman's imitating man and man's imitating woman

I guess Ann Coulter is in trouble.

57. A slave's running away from his master

Excuse me? No way could I accept that.

Anyway, I'm not "down" on Islam. I'm down on supposed Muslims taking a "holier than thou" position and dictating how others are to behave. Islam (from what I understand) is supposed to be a personal relationship with God and one is to use the Koran to help you lead a better life. Unfortunately, as with religion everywhere, people use it to wield power over others. And that should absolutely be haram.

[Tunisia216 2]

Okay I'm sorry but the Ann Coulter thing really had me Ask me why I ever bought that book Treason...

I agree with the part stating Islam to be a personal relationship with God.. That is true.. As is using Islam as power over others, you got it, 100% haram! You are supposed to help, protect, and pray for those who for whatever reason are less fortunate than you! Not attempt to put yourself above them in any way!

33. Woman's imitating man and man's imitating woman

I guess Ann Coulter is in trouble.

57. A slave's running away from his master

Excuse me? No way could I accept that.

Anyway, I'm not "down" on Islam. I'm down on supposed Muslims taking a "holier than thou" position and dictating how others are to behave. Islam (from what I understand) is supposed to be a personal relationship with God and one is to use the Koran to help you lead a better life. Unfortunately, as with religion everywhere, people use it to wield power over others. And that should absolutely be haram.

[doodlebugg 10]

Islam (from what I understand) is supposed to be a personal relationship with God and one is to use the Koran to help you lead a better life.

I"m sorry but where in the Quran does it say that Islam is supposed to be a personal relationship with God?

Islam is submission to God. How on earth could I have a personal relationship with an infinite power? I'm but a speck of sand compared to God but I'm supposed to have a personal relationship with Him? That idea is so opposite of what I understand Islam to be.

And who cares what you think should be haram or not? Do we answer to you in the end when we're dead and we're being judged? Do you personally sit up there with God and give Him your opinion since you're such good buds?

[Sandrila 1]

HARAM or not..I cant live without my music

[Tunisia216 2]

Maybe I misunderstood what she meant.. I'm not sure if she meant it as you are saying or as I took it that Islam is about submitting to God, as you've said but the relationship gained when you are praying, asking for help, looking for guidance from the creator... How you can't feel some connection to Allah through all the things that being a Muslim is about? Maybe connection is a better word for what I meant that "relationship" The purpose of Ramadan is to become more devout, closer to God and his message and instructions for us, and to be more aware of the sufferings around us and what we can do to help.... Right?

Islam (from what I understand) is supposed to be a personal relationship with God and one is to use the Koran to help you lead a better life.

I"m sorry but where in the Quran does it say that Islam is supposed to be a personal relationship with God?

Islam is submission to God. How on earth could I have a personal relationship with an infinite power? I'm but a speck of sand compared to God but I'm supposed to have a personal relationship with Him? That idea is so opposite of what I understand Islam to be.

And who cares what you think should be haram or not? Do we answer to you in the end when we're dead and we're being judged? Do you personally sit up there with God and give Him your opinion since you're such good buds?

[UmmSqueakster 54]

While it is possible and even necessary to have a relationship with God, it is important to go about it in the right way.

There are a sub genre of hadith known as hadith qudsi - words of Allah (swt) that are not from the Qur'an. In bukhari, we find this hadith qudsi:

Allah Most High says:

“Whomever is hostile to a friend of Mine I declare war against. My slave approaches Me with nothing more beloved to Me than what I have made obligatory upon him, and My slave keeps drawing nearer to Me with voluntary works until I love him. And when I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his sight with which he sees, his hand with which he seizes, and his foot with which he walks. If he asks Me, I will surely give to him, and if he seeks refuge in Me, I will surely protect him. I do not hesitate from anything I shall do more than My hesitation to take the soul of the believer who dislikes death; for I dislike displeasing him” (Bukhari, 8.131: 6502. S).

What is Islam? Islam is submission to God. How do we submit to God? In our actions, in our hearts, in our souls. Our relationship with the Divine is based upon our works, our submission to the will of Allah (swt). How can one have a relationship with Him if they do not do their best to follow what He has ordered?

[lion_lioness 0]

Rahma!!!!!!! Great post. How are you doing???

[Tunisia216 2]

Spot on for me! Thank you Rahma, that's what I was trying to convey but you did it much more eloquently than I did!! Thanks again!!

While it is possible and even necessary to have a relationship with God, it is important to go about it in the right way.

There are a sub genre of hadith known as hadith qudsi - words of Allah (swt) that are not from the Qur'an. In bukhari, we find this hadith qudsi:

Allah Most High says:

“Whomever is hostile to a friend of Mine I declare war against. My slave approaches Me with nothing more beloved to Me than what I have made obligatory upon him, and My slave keeps drawing nearer to Me with voluntary works until I love him. And when I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his sight with which he sees, his hand with which he seizes, and his foot with which he walks. If he asks Me, I will surely give to him, and if he seeks refuge in Me, I will surely protect him. I do not hesitate from anything I shall do more than My hesitation to take the soul of the believer who dislikes death; for I dislike displeasing him” (Bukhari, 8.131: 6502. S).

What is Islam? Islam is submission to God. How do we submit to God? In our actions, in our hearts, in our souls. Our relationship with the Divine is based upon our works, our submission to the will of Allah (swt). How can one have a relationship with Him if they do not do their best to follow what He has ordered?

[UmmSqueakster 54]

On the topic of what is halal and what is haram:

The rulings of what is haram and what is halal are based on more than just the Qur'an. Take smoking for example. It's not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an, and yet, today a growing number (if not already the majority) declare that it is haram? Why? Because we use the Qur'an, the Sunnah AND reasoning AND consensus when determining what is fard (required), mustahab (recommended) mubah (permissible), makruh (disliked) and haram (forbidden).

When Allah (swt) revealed Islam to the world, He did not just throw the Qur'an down and say here, memorize this, there will be a test next Friday. No, in His infinate wisdom, He gave us a teacher, the Prophet Muhammad (saws), to show us the best way to impliment the Word of God. As such, after the Prophet's death, his companions kept refering back to his actions. Over time, the body of hadith literature were collected, studied, and codified as a science within the religion.

This is why when we are looking for what is halal and what is haram, we look both and the Qur'an and the Sunnah (traditions of the Prophet as recorded in the hadith). Again over time, scholars emerged who created systems of approaching and interpreting these sources. The 4 main methods of approach (at least within sunni islam), are the 4 major madhabs that survive today: Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki and Hanbali. There were other minority approaches, schools of thought that died off, and revivalist traditions that sprung up from time to time. The modern salafi movement is one of the latter.

Now if you're a quran only muslim, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax, and is an approach that has sprung up from time to time, but has never gained any major following.

So if you're going to approach islam, first tread the path of those who came before you before you begin to wander off on your own. That path is well worn, well researched, and well documented. If you want to explore on your own, that's fine too, but the basis of Islam is the Quran and 23 years of the Prophet's (saws) life. That's a lot of material, and it can be easy to get lost in it.

As for getting off the computer and opening up books, what difference does it make? Unless one has put in the years of study with people of knowledge and learned the classical arabic, we're all going to be doing taqlid (following) someone's opinion who is more knowledgeable. There are plenty of shady books and shady teachers in real life out there.

In the end, what we SHOULD do is make sure we know who we're taking our opinions from. If one just used ol Sheikh Google to find themselves a fatwa on the issue, and doesn't know who issued it and what methodology they follow, that's not cool. But if we know who's on the other end of the website, and we know that they are knowledgeable, then there's no harm in taking from them.

Sunnipath is taking the knowledge that has been transmitted from teacher to student for generations in person and is putting it up there to be transmitted from teacher to student on the web. It is not a fly by night fatwa operation. If we were all so lucky as to have a knowledgeable teacher down the block we could sit with, then we'd go sit with them. But for those of us who don't, sunnipath and other similar sites allow us to sit with knowledgeable men and women and learn the religion. Heck, you can get off the computer and go study with the scholars of sunnipath in Jordan. I bet you they'll say the same thing in person as they do online

It is a well known majority opinion that music is haram in all 4 madhabs. There are minority opinions, especially in defunct schools like the zaharis, that music is permissible. People who say that music is haram aren't talking out of their behind. They have evidence.

For the music is haram argument, Sh. Nuh gives a good talk about it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goIV2cUehiE

For the music is halal argument, Yusuf Islam explores this - http://www.mountainoflight.co.uk/PDF/music...stion_faith.pdf

In the end, the best thing that can be learned from this is to make sure you have a knowledgeable source for your information. If you want to study the shafi'i and hanafi madhabs, great! If you want to study the maliki madhab, there are resources available online for that too. If you want to be a hanbali, well, good luck you you, because there's not much out there, unless you live near a hanbali scholar, lol. If you want to be a salafi, it's online, and there are plenty of salafi teachers around the country as well. If you want to be a zahari, ibn Hazm's books are out there for the reading in arabic. If you want to be something else, just make sure you have sources and aren't making it up as your go along.

[Nothing1234 2]

I'd feel safer than trying to respond here! LOL

Thank God Ramadan is coming :0) Here is to hoping bickering is at an all time LOW!

Any chance of merging this thread and the bikini thread?

i don't think we'd be having any bickering if this was about harems.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Finally alcohol.

If we look at the 2 major sources of Islam, the Qur'an and the life of our beloved Prophet (saws), we see a clear progression in relation to khmar.

When I need to find a neutral source (ie one that isn't too salafi or madhabi in it's orientation), I usually turn to Islamonline. Oftentimes, they'll give the opinions of a wide variety of scholars, and include minority opinions. Here is what they have to say re: khmar:

Why is Alcohol Forbidden?

Islam Prohibits Drugs and Alcohol

Alcohol: Dangerous, but Why?

As we can see from these three pieces, they don't include a minority opinion. Why? Because there is none, or at least none that is considered viable. There are differences in the religion, and you will find different opinions on different matters. But, not on alcohol. Sorry.

Rahma!!!!!!! Great post. How are you doing???

*waves* Alhamdulilah, can't complain

[doodlebugg 10]

Ash - I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling more connected to God. My whole point is that it sounds like some people put God on the same level as human beings and from there try to rationalize this or that sin making it *feel* ok to do. Iv'e done it myself in the past, you know? But now, when I do something that is haram...which I do often as a matter of fact, I at least own up to it and try to do better next time. It is when people try to rationalize their way into doing these things that gets me. Own up to it and admit that it's wrong in your head instead of trying to convince people that it's ok to drink, swear, <insert favorite sin here>. Not only is rationalizing it in your head bad for you but doing it on a public message board with tons of newbie muslimahs is really dangerous. That's all I was trying to say.

And as for the bickering, I can blame most of mine on this medication I'm on which makes me b!tchy for the entire month instead of just one week now BUT when someone like rclouse comes on and tries to mock my religion I *will* defend it.

btw I puffy heart Rahma and hope she stays this time.

[AlHayatZween 2]

See, i think, it was the use of the word haram that i took such offense to, when having the heated discussion about music. (The discussion, remembering from my first post, that prompted this whole online discussion.) Makruh is one thing, i don't have an argument there... but Haram, quite another...

Yes, the Sunnah Companion texts are important in following the path; however, as we all know there are hundreds of hadiths out there, and not all are reliable. It is also frustrating when having a discussion with someone and they state something as fact and then can't remember the hadith they pulled it from. (i'm not saying that's happening here... just stating a general peeve of my own... and i am NO authority on Islam, that is for sure.)

Sometimes i wonder if i am too liberal in my interpretation of everything.....

[UmmSqueakster 54]

See, i think, it was the use of the word haram that i took such offense to, when having the heated discussion about music. (The discussion, remembering from my first post, that prompted this whole online discussion.) Makruh is one thing, i don't have an argument there... but Haram, quite another...

Haram is thrown around a lot these days, probably more than it should be. BUT, if it's warrented to use it, if it's been used re: something for centuries, then we shouldn't be shy to say that that something is haram.

Yes, the Sunnah Companion texts are important in following the path; however, as we all know there are hundreds of hadiths out there, and not all are reliable. It is also frustrating when having a discussion with someone and they state something as fact and then can't remember the hadith they pulled it from. (i'm not saying that's happening here... just stating a general peeve of my own... and i am NO authority on Islam, that is for sure.)

Which is why it's important to not only study, but to rely on a source who knows what the heck they're talking about. Thousands upon thousands, perhaps millions have dedicated their lives to studying hadith. It's not like it's a secret what is strong, what is weak and what is fabricated. Find a scholar or a book that knows, and look.

Sometimes i wonder if i am too liberal in my interpretation of everything.....

I don't know you well enough to judge So long as you're open to looking and learning, it's hard to go wrong.