Georgia/Russia Conflict

[Ilya R. 0]

How will it play on USCIS and russian spouses?

[1HappyGuy 45]

This will probably depend upon the view of Russia by each individual. Some will see Russia as peace makers and others as invaders or supporters of separatists. But, no matter what your outlook, the really sad thing is that innocent people just wishing to live their lives are dying.

This world needs to find ways to settle it's differences without war. I'm not expecting that to happen any time soon.

[mox 298]

The situation in Georgia is long and complicated, and has been going on for over a hundred years. But basically South Osettia has been able to maintain (un-recognized) independence from Georgia because of not-so-clandestine Russian backing (i.e. gun running and funding for rebels). Shevardnadze (Georgian leader) was an absolute idiot for choosing yesterday as the day he decided to take back South Osettia, and the Russian government has got to just be loving it, because it's completely overshadowed by the opening of the Olympics.

How it plays out in USCIS depends on the Russian government. If it turns out to be a no-holes barred invasion, it could be very very bad for Russian/US relations. We could even see sanctions, which would effectively freeze any visas. But I think that won't happen. I don't see Russia as really wanting to own Georgia. They're perfectly content with keeping South Osettia in a state of unrest, which keeps Georgia from becoming any kind of threat. I'll be surprised if there isn't a pullout or at least a ceasefire within a week.

[Blues Fairy 0]

Shevardnadze (Georgian leader) was an absolute idiot for choosing yesterday as the day he decided to take back South Osettia, and the Russian government has got to just be loving it

Shevardnadze should have chosen instead some day before 2003, while he was still the Georgian leader.

But now his young and obnoxious successor Saakashvili chose to launch a bloody offensive against South Ossettia on the very day of the Olympics opening, killing close to 1500 citizens and obviously hoping that USA will rush in and support him against Russia. Yeah right. I think all sane folks understand who is the aggressor and the villain in this case.

[mox 298]

Shevardnadze should have chosen instead some day before 2003, while he was still the Georgian leader.

LOL! D'oh! Well in any case I hope Gorbachev pulls his troops out of Georgia.

Yeah right. I think all sane folks understand who is the aggressor and the villain in this case.

Nobody is innocent, and as usual it will be the people who suffer. I am, however, amused that our (the US) third largest provider of troops in Iraq, Georgia, is pulling their soldiers out of Iraq to come home and fight the Russians. I believe that's a whole 1,200 troops. Because, you know, that's gonna make a difference against the Russian army.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Honestly, we know there is ethnic and cultural affinity in many S. Osettians for Russia, but this is clearly not any sort of Russian peacekeeping exercise, any more than we are occupying Guantanamo to "keep peace" in Cuba. If North Dakotans were to declare an affinity for Canada and a desire to succeed from the US or be annexed, would Canadian troops be seen in America as peacekeepers? Would US troops moving to end the occupation of North Dakota be seen as an act of aggression against Canada, or resistance against an unwelcome foreign presence on our soil?

I know that the US is the only real superpower left standing, but the double standard still irritates me. When the US sends troops to any region for almost any reason, it is always seen as an act of imperialist aggression. When other countries (even Russia for cripes sakes) do the same, they are often portrayed as benevolent peacekeepers, just friendly neighbors helping to maintain order. I am talking here about unilateral occupation - not UN-type consensus peacekeeping.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Brad and Vika

[slim 1,514]

This world needs to find ways to settle it's differences without war. I'm not expecting that to happen any time soon.

(Missionary) "We're going up that river and we're going to change peoples' lives."

(Rambo) "Did you bring a gun?"

(Missionary) "No."

(Rambo) "Then you're not going to change anything."

That about sums it up. Words of wisdom from John Rambo.

But... to get a little more deep, men with money, LOTS and LOTS of money can change the world as well. ("So what if the Security Council didn't approve an invasion. Don't you know how much oil they have there?") But, it ends up being men with guns who change the minds of the men with money. The men with the money end up hiring other men with guns and before you know it, the cycle repeats itself until either the money dries up because too many men with money now fear men with guns or the men with guns make enough money for the men with money that the other men with guns cease to fight.

As far as what's going on in Georgia..... the U.S. thumbed it's nose at the Russians by giving Georgia recognition but it's not like they're going to be massing troops on the border to stave off the Russian invasion. A few years ago a fledgling break-away republic declared independence from Russia as well..... the capital city, Grozny, is still in ruins. (And it's still Russian.) Granted that was a different conflict waged by entirely different people (wait a minute... those aren't crosses on your gold chains!) but the outcome in this one will be the same. The international community (er, um, I mean the U.S.) will keep it's hands out of Russia's cookie jar. Sure Georgia is an independent state, but anything FSU is Russia's mess, not ours.

No matter what happens though, it will have absolutely no effect on visas for fiance(e)s or spouses. (Didn't you read above.. "hands off" means hands off!)

As far as what mox was saying.... I'm with you bro. I hope Georgia pulling ALL THOSE troops out of Iraq doesn't hurt our mission over there. ALL that support being gone now.... I hope our boys can take it.

And in response to what Brad is saying about America always being the "bad guy" and "global domination opression machine occupying force" that we're made out to be in the rest of the world I believe that comes from our own hypocrisy. "We're invading your country to liberate your people... this has nothing to do with the ocean of oil that's under you. Nothing to do with the Saudi king dying. Nothing to do with old family rivalries of the powerful and rich... nothing at all. We're here for you!" Meanwhile, Russia gets on TV with that "Russian smile" and says, "We invade your country because we not like that you neighbor for us. You smell like dog feces and your land is really land of Russia. We will now take back." (And then the reporters ask all questions) "So, it has nothing to do with the pipeline or the gold?" (Prime minister coughs a little, says under his breath) "Who let this @$$#ole in here?" (Coughs again) "We are aware of this and will be take too. It is for Russia now."

Amazing what you can get away with when you tell the truth. America has always had a "piss down your back and tell you it's rain" policy on the rest of the world. Russia has always had a "deal with it or you're dead" policy and surprisingly enough, folks tend to like dealing and dying better than lying. Strange. Not very capitalistic if you ask me! They must not have gotten the memo. Come on Fox News, where are you?

[Bobalouie 0]

This world needs to find ways to settle it's differences without war. I'm not expecting that to happen any time soon.

(Missionary) "We're going up that river and we're going to change peoples' lives."

(Rambo) "Did you bring a gun?"

(Missionary) "No."

(Rambo) "Then you're not going to change anything."

That about sums it up. Words of wisdom from John Rambo.

But... to get a little more deep, men with money, LOTS and LOTS of money can change the world as well. ("So what if the Security Council didn't approve an invasion. Don't you know how much oil they have there?") But, it ends up being men with guns who change the minds of the men with money. The men with the money end up hiring other men with guns and before you know it, the cycle repeats itself until either the money dries up because too many men with money now fear men with guns or the men with guns make enough money for the men with money that the other men with guns cease to fight.

As far as what's going on in Georgia..... the U.S. thumbed it's nose at the Russians by giving Georgia recognition but it's not like they're going to be massing troops on the border to stave off the Russian invasion. A few years ago a fledgling break-away republic declared independence from Russia as well..... the capital city, Grozny, is still in ruins. (And it's still Russian.) Granted that was a different conflict waged by entirely different people (wait a minute... those aren't crosses on your gold chains!) but the outcome in this one will be the same. The international community (er, um, I mean the U.S.) will keep it's hands out of Russia's cookie jar. Sure Georgia is an independent state, but anything FSU is Russia's mess, not ours.

No matter what happens though, it will have absolutely no effect on visas for fiance(e)s or spouses. (Didn't you read above.. "hands off" means hands off!)

As far as what mox was saying.... I'm with you bro. I hope Georgia pulling ALL THOSE troops out of Iraq doesn't hurt our mission over there. ALL that support being gone now.... I hope our boys can take it.

And in response to what Brad is saying about America always being the "bad guy" and "global domination opression machine occupying force" that we're made out to be in the rest of the world I believe that comes from our own hypocrisy. "We're invading your country to liberate your people... this has nothing to do with the ocean of oil that's under you. Nothing to do with the Saudi king dying. Nothing to do with old family rivalries of the powerful and rich... nothing at all. We're here for you!" Meanwhile, Russia gets on TV with that "Russian smile" and says, "We invade your country because we not like that you neighbor for us. You smell like dog feces and your land is really land of Russia. We will now take back." (And then the reporters ask all questions) "So, it has nothing to do with the pipeline or the gold?" (Prime minister coughs a little, says under his breath) "Who let this @$$#ole in here?" (Coughs again) "We are aware of this and will be take too. It is for Russia now."

Amazing what you can get away with when you tell the truth. America has always had a "piss down your back and tell you it's rain" policy on the rest of the world. Russia has always had a "deal with it or you're dead" policy and surprisingly enough, folks tend to like dealing and dying better than lying. Strange. Not very capitalistic if you ask me! They must not have gotten the memo. Come on Fox News, where are you?

South Ossieta is not a breakaway Russian republic. It is a breakaway GEORGIAN republic. This is a completely Georgian internal affair and should be handled by Georgia. Russia should stay out of it.

The North Dakota analagy is a pretty good one, but not completely correct. Canada would have needed to send peacekeepers AND give all US citizens in N. Dakota Canadian passports, effectively claiming N. Dakota as a Canadian enclave. That gives Canada the right to enter N. Dakota at will to protect the rights of thier new citizens when they think they are threatened. Thats what Russia did with S. Ossieta and Abkhazia (both are in Georgia) 16 years ago.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Bobalouie

[eekee 182]

I think it ruins Georgia's chances of joining NATO, which would also escalate US/Russia tensions.

[Blues Fairy 0]

South Ossieta is not a breakaway Russian republic. It is a breakaway GEORGIAN republic. This is a completely Georgian internal affair and should be handled by Georgia. Russia should stay out of it.

If Ossettia is strictly Georgian affair, then Kosovo should have been strictly Serbian affair and USA should have stayed out as well. South Ossettia, as well as Abkhasia, were made part of Georgia at the onset of the Soviet Union. After it broke down, they declared independence from Georgia by democratic referendums. Since Georgia would not let them be, Russia kept peacekeapers in the region. This whole skirmish started with killing a few Russian peacekeeping troops by Georgian forces. GEORGIA started it!!! Before responding, Russia addressed the UN and asked for a note of protest against Georgia. And of course now Saakashvili, seeing that his ### is about to be kicked, complains to the "leaders of the West" and labels Russia "aggressor". You guys really should not let him get away with this - though he's been kissing up to the U.S., it should be clear by now what this man really is.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Blues Fairy

[Brad and Vika 129]

South Ossieta is not a breakaway Russian republic. It is a breakaway GEORGIAN republic. This is a completely Georgian internal affair and should be handled by Georgia. Russia should stay out of it.

If Ossettia is strictly Georgian affair, then Kosovo should have been strictly Serbian affair and USA should have stayed out as well. South Ossettia, as well as Abkhasia, were made part of Georgia at the onset of the Soviet Union. After it broke down, they declared independence from Georgia by democratic referendums. Since Georgia would not let them be, Russia kept peacekeapers in the region. This whole skirmish started with killing a few Russian peacekeeping troops by Georgian forces. GEORGIA started it!!! Before responding, Russia addressed the UN and asked for a note of protest against Georgia. And of course now Saakashvili, seeing that his ### is about to be kicked, complains to the "leaders of the West" and labels Russia "aggressor". You guys really should not let him get away with this - though he's been kissing up to the U.S., it should be clear by now what this man really is.s

Although I do agree that some of the circumstances in Kosovo are similar, there was clearly a multinational peacekeeping force there. America did not simply plunk down thousands of troops on a unilateral basis to maintain stability in the region. Also, the Georgians are not engaged in ethnic cleansing or other crimes in either region - the government can't even go there. There are times when a government (like the extreme nationalist Serbian government back during the cleansing) behaves so badly that other countries should step in. Not to mention the fact that the Soviet government set the border in Georgia as it dissolved. The Ossetian situation is much closer to our occupation of Guantanamo, Cuba than what happened in Kosovo. We are still in Cuba because the Cuban government can't make us leave - same situation between Georgia and Russia.

I disagree with Blues Fairy about who started this too. Back to my example, if North Dakota passed a democratic referendum of independence from the US, there is no way our government would recognize it. Russia has EXACTLY the same philosophy about its territory that Georgia does. We saw what happened when the democratic referendum was passed by those silly Chechins. Russia was not going to let them go just because they decided to leave. As to the killing of Russian "peacekeepers", that is a very effective way to deter Georgia from any attempt to protect its citizens. Militia and pro-Russia paramilitary units can now snipe, mortar, and raid with impunity, then hide behind the Russian troops and thumb their noses at the Georgian government - all of it further destabilises the area. The lack of stability and proximity to Russia in turn keeps Georgia out of NATO and the EU. Russia knows this, and that is a great reason to "protect" Russian citizens this way.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Brad and Vika

[Ilya R. 0]

South Ossieta is not a breakaway Russian republic. It is a breakaway GEORGIAN republic. This is a completely Georgian internal affair and should be handled by Georgia. Russia should stay out of it.

If Ossettia is strictly Georgian affair, then Kosovo should have been strictly Serbian affair and USA should have stayed out as well. South Ossettia, as well as Abkhasia, were made part of Georgia at the onset of the Soviet Union. After it broke down, they declared independence from Georgia by democratic referendums. Since Georgia would not let them be, Russia kept peacekeapers in the region. This whole skirmish started with killing a few Russian peacekeeping troops by Georgian forces. GEORGIA started it!!! Before responding, Russia addressed the UN and asked for a note of protest against Georgia. And of course now Saakashvili, seeing that his ### is about to be kicked, complains to the "leaders of the West" and labels Russia "aggressor". You guys really should not let him get away with this - though he's been kissing up to the U.S., it should be clear by now what this man really is.s

Although I do agree that some of the circumstances in Kosovo are similar, there was clearly a multinational peacekeeping force there. America did not simply plunk down thousands of troops on a unilateral basis to maintain stability in the region. Also, the Georgians are not engaged in ethnic cleansing or other crimes in either region - the government can't even go there. There are times when a government (like the extreme nationalist Serbian government back during the cleansing) behaves so badly that other countries should step in. Not to mention the fact that the Soviet government set the border in Georgia as it dissolved. The Ossetian situation is much closer to our occupation of Guantanamo, Cuba than what happened in Kosovo. We are still in Cuba because the Cuban government can't make us leave - same situation between Georgia and Russia.

I disagree with Blues Fairy about who started this too. Back to my example, if North Dakota passed a democratic referendum of independence from the US, there is no way our government would recognize it. Russia has EXACTLY the same philosophy about its territory that Georgia does. We saw what happened when the democratic referendum was passed by those silly Chechins. Russia was not going to let them go just because they decided to leave. As to the killing of Russian "peacekeepers", that is a very effective way to deter Georgia from any attempt to protect its citizens. Militia and pro-Russia paramilitary units can now snipe, mortar, and raid with impunity, then hide behind the Russian troops and thumb their noses at the Georgian government - all of it further destabilises the area. The lack of stability and proximity to Russia in turn keeps Georgia out of NATO and the EU. Russia knows this, and that is a great reason to "protect" Russian citizens this way.

I think comparing North Dakota to South Ossetia is like comparing apples and oranges. Both are round, but completely different. Its not a simple, this goes back to USSR days, this goes back to breakup of the soviet union, and it was GEORGIA that asked russia to send peacekeepers in the 90's to Osetia, where they have been ever since. Osetia has been fighting with Georgia for over 15 years. And how can you compare Chechen conflict? THey openly sought terrorist actions on Russian soil, There were camps of terrorist Ala Afganistan. But its okay for America to clean up the Terrorists, but not for Russia? Double standard you say? Very interesting. Please look at all the news sources in the west. Topics ranging from "RUSSIA INVADES GEORGIA" to "RUSSIA's Tanks cross to Georgian soil" I havent seen one, "Georgian kill 1500 civilians in a surprise raid during the begging of Olympics" You dont believe who the aggressors are, please take a look where osetians are running to, not towards the Georgians thats for sure. I would suggest reading up on the conflict and not making up theories.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Ilya R.

[Brad and Vika 129]

South Ossieta is not a breakaway Russian republic. It is a breakaway GEORGIAN republic. This is a completely Georgian internal affair and should be handled by Georgia. Russia should stay out of it.

If Ossettia is strictly Georgian affair, then Kosovo should have been strictly Serbian affair and USA should have stayed out as well. South Ossettia, as well as Abkhasia, were made part of Georgia at the onset of the Soviet Union. After it broke down, they declared independence from Georgia by democratic referendums. Since Georgia would not let them be, Russia kept peacekeapers in the region. This whole skirmish started with killing a few Russian peacekeeping troops by Georgian forces. GEORGIA started it!!! Before responding, Russia addressed the UN and asked for a note of protest against Georgia. And of course now Saakashvili, seeing that his ### is about to be kicked, complains to the "leaders of the West" and labels Russia "aggressor". You guys really should not let him get away with this - though he's been kissing up to the U.S., it should be clear by now what this man really is.s

Although I do agree that some of the circumstances in Kosovo are similar, there was clearly a multinational peacekeeping force there. America did not simply plunk down thousands of troops on a unilateral basis to maintain stability in the region. Also, the Georgians are not engaged in ethnic cleansing or other crimes in either region - the government can't even go there. There are times when a government (like the extreme nationalist Serbian government back during the cleansing) behaves so badly that other countries should step in. Not to mention the fact that the Soviet government set the border in Georgia as it dissolved. The Ossetian situation is much closer to our occupation of Guantanamo, Cuba than what happened in Kosovo. We are still in Cuba because the Cuban government can't make us leave - same situation between Georgia and Russia.

I disagree with Blues Fairy about who started this too. Back to my example, if North Dakota passed a democratic referendum of independence from the US, there is no way our government would recognize it. Russia has EXACTLY the same philosophy about its territory that Georgia does. We saw what happened when the democratic referendum was passed by those silly Chechins. Russia was not going to let them go just because they decided to leave. As to the killing of Russian "peacekeepers", that is a very effective way to deter Georgia from any attempt to protect its citizens. Militia and pro-Russia paramilitary units can now snipe, mortar, and raid with impunity, then hide behind the Russian troops and thumb their noses at the Georgian government - all of it further destabilises the area. The lack of stability and proximity to Russia in turn keeps Georgia out of NATO and the EU. Russia knows this, and that is a great reason to "protect" Russian citizens this way.

I think comparing North Dakota to South Ossetia is like comparing apples and oranges. Both are round, but completely different. Its not a simple, this goes back to USSR days, this goes back to breakup of the soviet union, and it was GEORGIA that asked russia to send peacekeepers in the 90's to Osetia, where they have been ever since. Osetia has been fighting with Georgia for over 15 years. And how can you compare Chechen conflict? THey openly sought terrorist actions on Russian soil, There were camps of terrorist Ala Afganistan. But its okay for America to clean up the Terrorists, but not for Russia? Double standard you say? Very interesting. Please look at all the news sources in the west. Topics ranging from "RUSSIA INVADES GEORGIA" to "RUSSIA's Tanks cross to Georgian soil" I havent seen one, "Georgian kill 1500 civilians in a surprise raid during the begging of Olympics" You dont believe who the aggressors are, please take a look where osetians are running to, not towards the Georgians thats for sure. I would suggest reading up on the conflict and not making up theories.

I am not making up anything, and you misunderstood me. Russia was absolutely correct and justified in securing its territory and putting down Cechen terrorist activity, or rebellion, or whatever. That was exactly my point. Chechnia is INSIDE Russia, like N. Dakota in inside America (looks like an apple). Ossetia is OUTSIDE Russia, like Guantanamo is outside America (smells like an apple). I have read up on the conflict - my opinion isn't necessarily wrong because it is different than yours. I think loyalty to motherland can sometimes cloud ones judgement - and it is tough to see your countrymen dying regardless of the right or wrong in the situation. Read my comments again carefully.

And here are some ofthose missing headlines.

MSN

BBC

[Ilya R. 0]

haha, I love media

[eekee 182]

haha, I love media

me too. russian and american media are both pretty ridiculous, IMO.