The United States of America - my thoughts so far

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I love posters who are so defensive they claimed all of my experiences must be lies or grossly inflated. Look it happened so get over it. I don't presume to say you've never had bad day in America. The nazi jokes not seems not offensive enough but I'll bet I'd get some stinging rebukes or fistfights if I made remarks like that about the UK in the UK as an American.

But far more than simply hearing the words, I observed the behaviour of the people in the small cafe's and diners all over the south and further (Louisana, Texas, Alabama, Wyoming, Montana, parts of Florida), when my OH and I (a mixed race African-American) would come in to their business. Let me tell you it was not friendly, and said a lot more than using any derogatory term towards us.

I never seen that type of behavior openly in the South so you're probably lying or exaggerating. See how dumb it sounds ME characterizing YOUR experience. Care to explain what made you feel uneasy? Somebody looked at you and your OH and it pissed you off? My fiancee isn't white and my kids will be mixed and I don't intend walk around with chip on my shoulder like you. Also, the number of mixed race couples in America has soared and we may have mixed race president soon so your experiences don't square with the majority of Americans.

The contradictions in bold here are rather interesting

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Dude... I am totally not following you around. I was over in that thread doing my business when you got all weird-###. Then you post in a thread in the UK sub-forum, and although you don't call me by name it is super-clear it was me. I'm not the one acting like a crazy person, or a stalker. I doubt any of my UK friends here would say I was the one who was acting a smidge de trop.

Eh, ####### it. I have to make the world safe for capitalism this afternoon and get a manicure.

[no name 1]

That's my cue to end my part in the thread.

Hmmmm......surely it's not an obsession that's making you stay?

[Big Papa Zone 93]

Your observations of the UK, while I don't doubt were first hand, were observed on a very whistlestop tour of the UK, seemingly almost entirely on a train.

[Gemmie 142]

I love posters who are so defensive they claimed all of my experiences must be lies or grossly inflated. Look it happened so get over it. I don't presume to say you've never had bad day in America. The nazi jokes not seems not offensive enough but I'll bet I'd get some stinging rebukes or fistfights if I made remarks like that about the UK in the UK as an American.

But far more than simply hearing the words, I observed the behaviour of the people in the small cafe's and diners all over the south and further (Louisana, Texas, Alabama, Wyoming, Montana, parts of Florida), when my OH and I (a mixed race African-American) would come in to their business. Let me tell you it was not friendly, and said a lot more than using any derogatory term towards us.

I never seen that type of behavior openly in the South so you're probably lying or exaggerating. See how dumb it sounds ME characterizing YOUR experience. Care to explain what made you feel uneasy? Somebody looked at you and your OH and it pissed you off? My fiancee isn't white and my kids will be mixed and I don't intend walk around with chip on my shoulder like you. Also, the number of mixed race couples in America has soared and we may have mixed race president soon so your experiences don't square with the majority of Americans.

The contradictions in bold here are rather interesting

In his/her defense, he/she did that to prove a point, not because it was meant.

"I never seen that type of behavior openly in the South so you're probably lying or exaggerating. See how dumb it sounds ME characterizing YOUR experience. Care to explain what made you feel uneasy?"

[Big Papa Zone 93]

I love posters who are so defensive they claimed all of my experiences must be lies or grossly inflated. Look it happened so get over it. I don't presume to say you've never had bad day in America. The nazi jokes not seems not offensive enough but I'll bet I'd get some stinging rebukes or fistfights if I made remarks like that about the UK in the UK as an American.

But far more than simply hearing the words, I observed the behaviour of the people in the small cafe's and diners all over the south and further (Louisana, Texas, Alabama, Wyoming, Montana, parts of Florida), when my OH and I (a mixed race African-American) would come in to their business. Let me tell you it was not friendly, and said a lot more than using any derogatory term towards us.

I never seen that type of behavior openly in the South so you're probably lying or exaggerating. See how dumb it sounds ME characterizing YOUR experience. Care to explain what made you feel uneasy? Somebody looked at you and your OH and it pissed you off? My fiancee isn't white and my kids will be mixed and I don't intend walk around with chip on my shoulder like you. Also, the number of mixed race couples in America has soared and we may have mixed race president soon so your experiences don't square with the majority of Americans.

The contradictions in bold here are rather interesting

Aren't they just! Irony anyone!!??

[Alex & Rachel 78]

I didn't see anyone accusing ALC of lying or exaggerating until page 9. We all just agreed he had had a bad experience.

By contrast he implied that he thought Damian P was lying when Damian said he'd lived for a couple of years in America, which I thought was a bit off:

Er no, I'm speaking from personal experience of having lived stateside for a couple of years.

I appreciate that at least Gemmie gave me a an honest "no" when I asked about if anyone had been in the U.S. South despite a few remarks about how racist the region is according to TV and the movies.

And yes - some of the harshest criticisms of the UK have come from UK people. After all if we all thought the UK was so ding-dangity perfect then we'd refuse to budge! By the way, I don't like fish and chips and I don't think anyone particularly cares all that much about the UK's past or present significance in the world or else we would've commented on the third time it was mentioned.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Alex & Rachel

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I'd agree that ALC was correct on many of his/her early points.

Everything did shutdown at 11 pm until the fall of 2005. I always found it so strange when I got there that everyone started drinking so early because of the shutting times.

The train system is horrible and I felt it was likely to collapse if something wasn't done soon. I commuted for a year and the mornings were okay because my station was the start of the route and I always got a comfy seat on a Virgin Train. But the evenings were really really bad on a first great western. I often hand to stand for an hour and I remember one horrible day when someone committed suicide near the severn tunnel and we had to take a 4 hour journey by way of Gloucester. During the summer the trains would reak of body odor because most trains had no A/C and there were say a 5 carriage load of people in 2. I also remember when police in riot gear had to rush the train station one afternoon because football hooligans were taking over platforms and fighting.

At the same time as one poster stated about Metrolink (I grew up in STL) that was quite scary to ride on occasions.

Don't understand the food comments. I mean the markets don't seem to have quite the same quality or diversity as a US. store (with the exception of Waitross which I was lucky enough to live next to.) But eating out was the same to me. (Though I was always craving mexican and hunted down every place i could fine)

I also don't fully understand the architecture comments. I like terrace housing for the most part. I would say that all of the post war arch. was VERY VERY depressing ie. city buildings between 1950 and 1980. But the US has this too just less of it because our cities weren't bombed to dust. I mean everyone here has or will have been to the US embassy. Is that NOT one of the most depressing buildings you've ever seen?

The cameras never really bothered me and i'd say that UK police are far superior to our US wanna be military idiots. But the fact that I had to pay a tax for me TV was absolutely crazy.

Also I thought the modern computer was a UK invention ie. the EDSAC 1949 which was the first computer that could store programs in a type of memory.

And if you want to get technical here the first computer in history was the Antikythera mechanism developed by the Greeks not the US.

Edited August 31, 2008 by lancer1655

[Alex & Rachel 78]

I agree with everything you just said, lancer1655.

I really dislike British trains. I use them, because I do not have a car, but I don't like them! They're a little better than they used to be, but have made up for their small increase in efficiency and comfort with an enormous fare increase!

[Gemmie 142]

You're right about the fare increase... I lost my passport the DAY before my flight (yes, I know... but I have reason to believe it was stolen now) and had to travel to London to replace it. It cost me £45/$90 from Bath (about 100 miles) and then a further £6-7 to use the tubes.

And that was over 2 years ago!

Edited September 1, 2008 by Gemmie

[Captain Oates 910]

Original Poster here - A little reflection time

Things are definitely DIFFERENT. Where you are in the UK and where you are in the US has an enormous bearing on it too.

Cheltenham and Bradford are different worlds and so are areas of Milwaukee (murder central) and rural Washington state where I am (zero murders last year)

So in that way, it is impossible to compare the UK and the US as single entities because they are not

GENERALLY, and as a valid stereotype, the dirt and litter and drunkenness that I see in Britain is not present here in the US. The sun shines but it's 107 in summer and minus a billion in winter and vertical mountains and baking desert so i cant go walkies and its all private anyway with little access. I have been here since April and seen 2 mini squirrels and some deer - the wildlife is absent - not even a rabbit. I come from the Yorkshire dales where every field and river and wood has a public footpath to enjoy. That does not exist here. State /national/county parks are organized exercise yards and not to be compared with the walk from say the lake district to Ilkley moor. The food here is cheap junk it really is.

So I think we are homing in on which is 'best'. The answer is neither. They are different - and the US can offer some things and the UK can offer other things.

A person who is into military activities and is very right wing can fit in very well I am sure and will have no problem with uniforms and flags and pride and righteous wars. They will eat burgers and sit in the sun and look down on their former country and work on leaving it's culture behind and morphing into an American

Someone who has more liberal views and does not glorify the military or savour successful wars will have a harder time accepting all the flag waving and triumphalism. US prisons are horrifying and turn people into animals being watched by armed guards in towers. I find much of organised official american culture barbaric - firing squad executions/castration of sex offenders/trial by tv etc etc . There is barbarity in the population in england too but it isn't state sponsored.

What is an American anyway ? - Barbara Bush and Mike Tyson and Michael Moore are all Americans - you can only define individuals (and then with difficulty) and not whole countries. In that regard Mrs thatcher was right and there is no such thing as society. So there is no such thing as an American or a Brit or America or Britain - it all depends on who, where etc...

I am back in the UK in 2 weeks time for a week. I will have pork pie and some fish and chips and Timmy Taylor bitter and walk by Bolton abbey in Wharfedale and love it. Then I will see the litter and the council estates and the cold and wet and wind and probably miss the check out girl telling me I am very special person and thank you for shopping here and have a wonderful weekend and look forward to seeing me again

On balance, I am still here and have been to the UK for 7 days in the last year - so that must say something

I don't like having to chose - I am retired with a few bob in the bank - and so I think I will try to take the best of both worlds and reject the worst of both too and hope not kill someone after accidentally running a red light and then ending up in an american prison - I would rather be dead

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Yay, Alan's back! Very thoughtful post, by the way, as usual.

[Captain Oates 910]

Yay, Alan's back! Very thoughtful post, by the way, as usual.

and 10% less provocative too ! I must be mellowing

[ginger1981 0]

Someone who has more liberal views and does not glorify the military or savour successful wars will have a harder time accepting all the flag waving and triumphalism. US prisons are horrifying and turn people into animals being watched by armed guards in towers. I find much of organised official american culture barbaric - firing squad executions/castration of sex offenders/trial by tv etc etc . There is barbarity in the population in england too but it isn't state sponsored.

Just as a note on the firing squad: it is only used in two states, and at that it is a method that the offender can choose as an alternative to lethal injection. The last person to be executed by firing squad in the US was in Utah in 1996. It's quite a rare event when it happens.

I personally think part of the "war glory" comes from WWII veterans (who are often referred to as the "greatest generation"). Over here it was seen as the ultimate good vs. ultimate evil war....which IMHO isn't too terribly off even when you take some of the more embarrassing actions the US government took during that time period. Basically, I think a lot of people...in regards to war...have since had a hard time reconciling the US taking a military action that is wrong. Not everyone, but there are a lot of people out there with that attitude. This is also compounded by the fact that Vietnam vets were treated quite atrociously by the government and society at large in the years following that conflict.

Trial by TV...man I hate Nancy Grace. Hate her self-righteous helmet headed a_ss. Couldn't agree more there.

[Captain Oates 910]

Someone who has more liberal views and does not glorify the military or savour successful wars will have a harder time accepting all the flag waving and triumphalism. US prisons are horrifying and turn people into animals being watched by armed guards in towers. I find much of organised official american culture barbaric - firing squad executions/castration of sex offenders/trial by tv etc etc . There is barbarity in the population in england too but it isn't state sponsored.

Just as a note on the firing squad: it is only used in two states, and at that it is a method that the offender can choose as an alternative to lethal injection. The last person to be executed by firing squad in the US was in Utah in 1996. It's quite a rare event when it happens.

I personally think part of the "war glory" comes from WWII veterans (who are often referred to as the "greatest generation"). Over here it was seen as the ultimate good vs. ultimate evil war....which IMHO isn't too terribly off even when you take some of the more embarrassing actions the US government took during that time period. Basically, I think a lot of people...in regards to war...have since had a hard time reconciling the US taking a military action that is wrong. Not everyone, but there are a lot of people out there with that attitude. This is also compounded by the fact that Vietnam vets were treated quite atrociously by the government and society at large in the years following that conflict.

Trial by TV...man I hate Nancy Grace. Hate her self-righteous helmet headed a_ss. Couldn't agree more there.

The world war 2 thing doesn't hold water when you think the US sat back for 2 years and let 40 thousand Brits get killed in the blitz and the US never did declare war on Germany - Germany declared war on the USA after pearl harbour.

Both the US and Britain did not win the war - it was Russia. Russia rolled em back from Stalingrad in 1942 and lost 20 million dead and broke into Berlin and caused Hitler's suicide. The Brits and Americans played a lesser role.

My grandfather was killed by the Germans when my dad was 18 months old and my father fought in the jungle in Burma and didn't get home until 1946 - and I know they didn't see it as principled or heroic - they were conscripted and dismayed when they were called up. They would curl their lips at this hero stuff - they suffered because they had no choice. Many Americans were in the same boat in Vietnam and didn't deserve to be put down when they got back and many didn't deserve the hero thing either. They were just guys doing their best to survive.

Yes I have nightmares about nancy grace ! I hope she is never on a jury trying me. Any young man contemplating marriage should be asked the question - what will you do if she turns into nancy grace in 30 years time ?

I think the US is becoming more moral and civilised but it's taking it's time getting there. It was late with abolishing slavery after the UK. It was late with votes for women after the UK. It was late into the war (both). It is late with universal health and gay rights etc. But it gets there eventually and I think the people are leading the politicians right now.

Luckily I am not a woman, or gay or likely to end up in prison or have to work for minimum wage or tips. I feel desperately sorry for those in America who are - America is made for people like me (as I am now) and if I was poor I would want to be in Europe. If I got a disease that would cost say $500k and my insurance company found a way to wriggle out of it, I could lawfully fly to manchester, take up residence again and get it all paid for free - 100%. An American would have to just die. Wake up America and see what other people have and stop banging the superiority drum

Perhaps immigration should be based on a 'swap' so some poor person with no health insurance/ no prospects could go live in England and get a nice council house with central heating and a new kitchen and a nice garden and 400 dollars a week without working - no that wouldnt work - they are laid in their damp rooms on starvation money with no safety net and they are brainwashed into thinking the US is the 'best country that has ever existed in the history of the world ' (Mitt Romney), and they wave their little flags while they cough their lungs up

Being in the US makes me feel really bad for the 'have nots' here but at least they don't know the rest of the world and get a glow from being proud americans - so if that provides them comfort then it's cruel to point out the emperor's lack of clothes