My Husband's Father was Deported Yesterday

[allousa 1]

After reading diad's comments, I actually felt too ill to come back and read anymore for a while.

Diad, I get the point that you are offering information about the parameters in which an ER can occur... I get that. After floating in the black hole of the Immigration process for SEVEN YEARS, I am familiar with many reasons why someone cannot enter, gain visas, resident status, so on and so on. I intentionally flew into my husband's POE with him because I know what the pitfalls can be. I am not in anyway professing to be an expert of the system...not even by a long shot.

You were not in the situation with us, so how you can deem what is appropriate behavior really bothers me. My FIL NEVER understood himself what he was being denied entry for and being removed. He was never given a choice and never told. I made it clear to the CBP officers that he did not understand and they would repeatedly tell us "Shut up and sit down. You don't have a RIGHT to ask questions. This does not involve you". Please explain to me in your infinite knowledge how talking to us like that is excusable. We cooperated with them in everyway, yet they continued to tell us lie after lie. Even after they detained all of us, they told us they would soon let us go. They told us that his father would be held in a room by his self, but was put in general population. And the fact that never did they tell us why this was happening....even criminals are allowed to know what they are being charged with.

YOU cannot know the anguish at watching your spouse have to explain the process of being jailed, searched and handcuffed to his father. YOU cannot know the sorrow at losing precious time spent between grandparents and their grandchild.

IF there was a miscommunication, then WHY would CBP not try and get the information from me or my husband. Detaining elderly people for 8 hours...you don't find that harsh at all??? YOU were not a witness to the humiliation that his parents had to suffer.

FORGIVE ME for being sensitive to your supposed offerings of the proccess of the CBP, however, I am educated to know what humane treatment is and that is NOT what we experienced from these officers.

And to address their genorisity at giving us 45 minutes, that brings even more questions to my mind. How come they changed so drastically from the evening of the incident to the next day? IF my FIL was such a threat, then why were we even allowed to see him? Why were even given gate passes to access the gate?

We are definitely pursuing this through legal means...especially since we've been told by counsel that not all procedures were followed as they should have been.

You know, this whole experience has been a bitter pill to swollow....I don't need you shoving it down my throat.

[rebeccajo 14]

allousa -

With all due respect, may I ask you a question?

Yesterday, I took the time to do some research and posted several links for you which I hoped would help you. These links were about whom to contact if you have a complaint, etc.

No one in this thread has even commented on those links. Let alone thanked me for them.

Why, when someone takes the time to help you in a positive light, do you not even acknowledge that help? But when someone tries to help you with the brutal truth, you take the time to jump all over them?

[diadromous mermaid 36]

You know, I'll state my position again, and without emotion, and then all of the naysayers can masticate it over to their hearts desire. The point is that Allousa experienced something that disturbed her. She is willing to take it further. It is not my position to encourage or discourage her from acting on her emotions. What I feel is important, is to provide the information upon which she can make an informed decision ~ whether it would be wise, fruitful and successful to pursue it or not. If it is determined that the agents acted within their scope, given facts that have not yet come to our attention, then any attempt Allousa made to rectify this matter would not only be fruitless, but could just perpetuate an unfortunate situation that might be best left alone. We don't know what occurred, yet.

Frankly, all of this discussion on what her FIL did to prompt his refusal is premature. Several days have passed and to my knowledge no one has posted what, if anything, was written in her FIL's passport, or what, if anything, was asked of her FIL that could lead to his immediate removal. That causes me more pause, frankly. One would think that would be easy to The matter at hand is to become informed of what lies within the scope of a proper refusal and a proper removal. Harsh to contemplate or otherwise, there are procedures to remove an otherwise inadmissible alien from our borders. Whether the agents acted within the scope of their authority remains to be seen, and is predicated on the reasons the FIL was to be removed and what, if anything, he did to cooperate with agents during that removal.

Anyone that leaps to the conclusion that he was wrongfully removed is doing just that ~ leaping. It might just turn out that he was removed wrongfully, but right now there are any number of reasons that could exist for his refusal. All within the scope of an agents duty. As I said earlier, hypothetically, ER can ensue from a passport expiring in less than 6 months and an applicant registering unwillingness to withdraw his application for admission! Would you conclude that if an agent discovered a tourist with a passport that was due to expire shortly, and he ordered the alien to return abusive? If such an alien refused to voluntarily leave the border, when an agent had due cause to request it, would you conclude that if ER occurred as a result, an abuse of the agent's power?

Simply put, we don't know all of the facts. How many more times must I state that before those that are making an issue of my posts will accept it?

Allousa remarked that since it was her FIL's 4th visit she expected he'd have no problem. Why? The more visits one makes to a country, isn't it entirely possible that a CBP agent could view that as a pattern? She also commented that they had visas, but we all know that a visa is not an automatic pass to enter. She also mentioned that the German authorities found nothing apparently wrong with his documents, but German authorities aren't US authorities, and the German authorities were not witness to any discussion at the port of entry. She was upset with the way they were not given any information on the disposition of her FIL's removal. But agents informed her that this was prohibited per the Patriot Act. None of this demonstrates misuse of power, yet, in my opinion.

As far as offering emotional support, I am all for it...and again, at some point, when all the facts come out, it just might be a case for her to pursue, if her FIL gave no reason to the CBP to refuse his entry. Right now, we simply don't know, given the facts that have been offered. Finally, it is one thin to offer support, but to blindly encourage a member to "go get 'em" before it has been determined that any wrong was committed is highly irresposible.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

After reading diad's comments, I actually felt too ill to come back and read anymore for a while.

Diad, I get the point that you are offering information about the parameters in which an ER can occur... I get that. After floating in the black hole of the Immigration process for SEVEN YEARS, I am familiar with many reasons why someone cannot enter, gain visas, resident status, so on and so on. I intentionally flew into my husband's POE with him because I know what the pitfalls can be. I am not in anyway professing to be an expert of the system...not even by a long shot.

You were not in the situation with us, so how you can deem what is appropriate behavior really bothers me. My FIL NEVER understood himself what he was being denied entry for and being removed. He was never given a choice and never told. I made it clear to the CBP officers that he did not understand and they would repeatedly tell us "Shut up and sit down. You don't have a RIGHT to ask questions. This does not involve you". Please explain to me in your infinite knowledge how talking to us like that is excusable. We cooperated with them in everyway, yet they continued to tell us lie after lie. Even after they detained all of us, they told us they would soon let us go. They told us that his father would be held in a room by his self, but was put in general population. And the fact that never did they tell us why this was happening....even criminals are allowed to know what they are being charged with.

YOU cannot know the anguish at watching your spouse have to explain the process of being jailed, searched and handcuffed to his father. YOU cannot know the sorrow at losing precious time spent between grandparents and their grandchild.

IF there was a miscommunication, then WHY would CBP not try and get the information from me or my husband. Detaining elderly people for 8 hours...you don't find that harsh at all??? YOU were not a witness to the humiliation that his parents had to suffer.

FORGIVE ME for being sensitive to your supposed offerings of the proccess of the CBP, however, I am educated to know what humane treatment is and that is NOT what we experienced from these officers.

And to address their genorisity at giving us 45 minutes, that brings even more questions to my mind. How come they changed so drastically from the evening of the incident to the next day? IF my FIL was such a threat, then why were we even allowed to see him? Why were even given gate passes to access the gate?

We are definitely pursuing this through legal means...especially since we've been told by counsel that not all procedures were followed as they should have been.

You know, this whole experience has been a bitter pill to swollow....I don't need you shoving it down my throat.

Allousa, I can well imagine the embarassment and dismay and your disappointment...but put that aside for a moment and read what I have offered. I haven't deemed this appropriate behaviour or procedure, because of one simple reason. At this point, no one here, including you, knows the reason it occurred. If we were aware of the reason your FIL was refused entry, then perhaps we could conclude that the agents acted in error, or outside their realm.

CBP has no obligation to share anything with YOU or your husband what they are doing with your family member, and while I am sure you were calm, sometimes trying to intervene could make matters worse, given certain circumstances. I do not condone their behaviour, but does it fall into the realm of unlawful? By now you should have some knowledge as to what if anything was written in your FIL's passport. Did they make a notation? Why have you not offered that information, if they did? Did you ask your FIL if he was asked to withdraw his admission? Did they offer him a paper to sign? All of these questions answered could shed light into what occurred.

You still appear to be fixated on your FIL's refusal being related to a "threat". Why can't you be open enough to accept that it could be a much less ominous reason?

[diadromous mermaid 36]

After reading diad's comments, I actually felt too ill to come back and read anymore for a while.

In all due respect, if my comments could make you ill, isn't it entirely possible that you are being a little over-reactionary? And quite possibly, could that not also have coloured your percetion of the incident itself? I haven't written anything that could upset you, let alone sicken you!

[allousa 1]

allousa -

With all due respect, may I ask you a question?

Yesterday, I took the time to do some research and posted several links for you which I hoped would help you. These links were about whom to contact if you have a complaint, etc.

No one in this thread has even commented on those links. Let alone thanked me for them.

Why, when someone takes the time to help you in a positive light, do you not even acknowledge that help? But when someone tries to help you with the brutal truth, you take the time to jump all over them?

Rebecca,

I did see your post and I FULLY intend to look at each and every site that you posted when I am on my lunch break tomorrow at work. Due to the fact that we have a small child and my husband is working the entire weekend, it does not afford me the time to spend giving proper attention to all that you posted.

I am at a loss however, in how to even respond to your last statement.

[RAKASA 0]

N -

I saw that post. I'm speaking of since then - since Diaddie further clarified her position.

Do we operate under the assumption here that someone isn't allowed to reasonably explain what they meant? It looks to me like allousa asked Diaddie more questions and she has since answered them, but allousa has not been back.

'Support' doesn't mean raging at others while the OP is absent from the thread.

If this is directed at me, Rebecca, I don't see where I was anywhere near "raging".

[diadromous mermaid 36]

N -

I saw that post. I'm speaking of since then - since Diaddie further clarified her position.

Do we operate under the assumption here that someone isn't allowed to reasonably explain what they meant? It looks to me like allousa asked Diaddie more questions and she has since answered them, but allousa has not been back.

'Support' doesn't mean raging at others while the OP is absent from the thread.

If this is directed at me, Rebecca, I don't see where I was anywhere near "raging".

Nor I brutal and hardcore.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Don't you ladies know by now to stay the hell out of MENA?

This forum is like the South Bronx of VJ. Enter at your own peril.

[rebeccajo 14]

allousa -

With all due respect, may I ask you a question?

Yesterday, I took the time to do some research and posted several links for you which I hoped would help you. These links were about whom to contact if you have a complaint, etc.

No one in this thread has even commented on those links. Let alone thanked me for them.

Why, when someone takes the time to help you in a positive light, do you not even acknowledge that help? But when someone tries to help you with the brutal truth, you take the time to jump all over them?

Rebecca,

I did see your post and I FULLY intend to look at each and every site that you posted when I am on my lunch break tomorrow at work. Due to the fact that we have a small child and my husband is working the entire weekend, it does not afford me the time to spend giving proper attention to all that you posted.

I am at a loss however, in how to even respond to your last statement.

Allousa -

It took me some time yesterday to gather those links. Yet I didn't hear one word from ANYONE in the thread about them. So my question, I guess, is not just directed at you.

It does puzzle me that you would take the time to respond to what you view as negative information especially if you are as busy as you must be with a child, yet not acknowledge the other.

I think you are still very upset over what happened. I would be if it were me. But at the present moment, it kind of looks like you and some of the participants in this thread are more interested in keeping up the frenzy. What would be more productive, IMO, would be mustering knowledge. Revenge after all should not be the goal. Justice should be.

N -

I saw that post. I'm speaking of since then - since Diaddie further clarified her position.

Do we operate under the assumption here that someone isn't allowed to reasonably explain what they meant? It looks to me like allousa asked Diaddie more questions and she has since answered them, but allousa has not been back.

'Support' doesn't mean raging at others while the OP is absent from the thread.

If this is directed at me, Rebecca, I don't see where I was anywhere near "raging".

It was a collective generalization and aimed at no one in particular.

[allousa 1]

Diad -

My FIL was NEVER given a document to sign. NOT THE ENTIRE TIME WAS HE GIVEN A DOCUMENT TO SIGN.

From what my father in law told us, one of the CBP officers scratched through his passport but since they took it and put it in the sealed envelope to give to the German officials, we never saw what was written.

The only questions that he was asked were pertaining to his job in Morocco. He owns 3 elementary schools that are legitmately registered with the Kingdom of Morocco. He was never asked any questions about his stay here in the States. Also, his passport was just renewed last year, so the validity of his passport being near to expiration doesn't fly either.

As far as telling me that I'm being "over-reactionary"....can't find the words to respond to that. After all that we have been through and you call me out for being "over-reactionary".

As I have said before, I get the point that you are perhaps being the devil's adovcate for lack of a better word right now, but if I felt in ANY WAY that my FIL might have the smallest inkling of issues that would give reason for the CBP to deny entry and treat him the way they did, I sure wouldn't be posting here. Even our own immigration attorney has expressed his comments with the Charlotte CBP not knowing proper procedures and laws.

I'm not sure as to why you and Rebecca feel the need to make me feel worse about this situation than I already do.

[rebeccajo 14]

Don't you ladies know by now to stay the hell out of MENA?

This forum is like the South Bronx of VJ. Enter at your own peril.

[allousa 1]

Wow....just wow!

What a way to kick someone when their down. Thanks alot.

[rebeccajo 14]

Wow....just wow!

What a way to kick someone when their down. Thanks alot.

Sorry. It's sure not intended to be that way.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Diad -

My FIL was NEVER given a document to sign. NOT THE ENTIRE TIME WAS HE GIVEN A DOCUMENT TO SIGN.

From what my father in law told us, one of the CBP officers scratched through his passport but since they took it and put it in the sealed envelope to give to the German officials, we never saw what was written.

The only questions that he was asked were pertaining to his job in Morocco. He owns 3 elementary schools that are legitmately registered with the Kingdom of Morocco. He was never asked any questions about his stay here in the States. Also, his passport was just renewed last year, so the validity of his passport being near to expiration doesn't fly either.

As far as telling me that I'm being "over-reactionary"....can't find the words to respond to that. After all that we have been through and you call me out for being "over-reactionary".

As I have said before, I get the point that you are perhaps being the devil's adovcate for lack of a better word right now, but if I felt in ANY WAY that my FIL might have the smallest inkling of issues that would give reason for the CBP to deny entry and treat him the way they did, I sure wouldn't be posting here. Even our own immigration attorney has expressed his comments with the Charlotte CBP not knowing proper procedures and laws.

I'm not sure as to why you and Rebecca feel the need to make me feel worse about this situation than I already do.

If I recall correctly, you stated that your FIL had not been to the USA since 9/11, but had made 4 visits prior. I see from your profile that your husband filed for Asylum, and then afterwards secured PR through your marriage. Why would you not think that the former asylum case, and relationship between father and son might have some bearing?

As for the reaction, I believe you have good reason to be upset, but that might be clouding your thinking at this time. As for your general state of health, neither Rebecca nor I can possibly have any impact on your feeling ill. Even the choice of words "calling you out" suggests to me that you are feeling like you need to be on the defensive. Not true. We are your allies not adversaries.