Muslims

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Switching gears, I have to eat only organic meat from now on and I was thinking, does halal = organic? I mean do the rules of being able to call a piece of meat halal also include not feeding the cow/chicken/whatever hormones and other chemicals? I would think so since they have to treat the animal in a humane way but should I just assume this?

I'm cool with just buying organic from the local grocers and saying bismillah before eating it but if I can support a halal butcher *and* stay organic I'd rather do that. Anyone?

I'm no expert, but I think there are 3 different issues...

First there is the method of killing the animal (zabiha) and that is not only saying "bismillah" but includes the METHOD used, and the treatment of the animal before and after it's killed... The animal must be calm before it is killed swiftly and painlessly by cutting it's throat to allow the blood to drain. Then the carcass must be handled properly (not sure of the details there...)

The 2nd issue what an animal is fed, and treated, etc. would affect whether the meat is halal... regardless of how it was killed. If it was fed impure food like the carcasses of haram animals (which is common these days) that would render the meat impure, and "haram".

The third issue is whether the meat is healthy... from an organic stand point... free from hormones, antibiotics, disease, etc. I don't think these "additives" would make the meat "haram" and neither does organic = halal.... Humane treatment is a subjective term... When I think of inhumane I think of the chicken farms in Arkansas where the chickens never see the light of day. I think of veal stalls where the baby cows are nearly force fed until they are ready for slaughter and their feet never touch the ground because they don't want the meat to have any muscle which makes it tougher...

I think I'm glad that I am about 95% vegetarian... makes it a lot easier...

Good explanation.

In general, the focus of zabiha meat is on the first issue, rather then the last 2. I would venture to guess that most zabiha meat here in the US comes from factory farms, which kicks humane right out the window *shudders*

It would be great to have the meat be zabiha AND organic, but if I have to chose between the two, I go for the zabiha. Organic does not necessarily mean humane treatment, just no chemicals in the raising. There are organic factory farms.

What the ideal would be (in my mind), would be to get meat from a family farm (run by a christian, jew or muslim), where you can see how the animals are raised, and ask that the animals are slaughtered according to the rules of zabiha. Or, if the farm was run by a person of non abrahamic persuation, then they would allow you to participate in the slaughter, to make it zabiha.

This is possible if you have local muslim families willing to go in on a meat share. It takes a little bit of extra work, but the peace of mind may be worth it. This is what we're hoping to do once we have a house, where we can get a huge freezer to stick lots of meat in.

There is a growing movement like this in the muslim community. I recently came across Green Zabiha and was tickled pink. Alas, it's out in california, but if they pioneer a system, inshaAllah we can bring it to other places.

Now of course, all this will cost considerably more money then plain ol grocery store meat, and even plain ol zabiha grocery store meat. My feeling is that if you're getting higher quality meat, eating less won't be a problem. I don't believe mankind ate meat everyday until after the explosion of cheap corn post WW2 allowed meat to be produced cheaply (and of lesser quality).

[faryan 4]

Salam sisters! Just saw these today...

Thank you so much for the offer, not sure if we would be able to do so this year ... Our car is unreliable for long distance travel, so we havent even visited my husband's mum's home in Duluth... (we havent gone anywhere that takes more than 30 mins, boo hoo hoo)... My husband himself hasnt been there in more than 2 years, as he saved and used all of his holiday times to visit me in Malaysia etc... Mother-in-law and her husband did came over in April though to celebrate our 1st anniversary here in IA , so we get to hang out together, and we rode with them to visit the grandparents in Kansas (they have nicer car hehehe)... Maybe when our car finally give out on us, we'd have to get a new one, and then we can start visiting people...

To be honest, I'm not used to going to masjid at all back at home, if any only for prayers when traveling long distance (and back in high school when i was in boarding school and we were made to go all the time). They are usually too packed (overflowing) with people, or have a "culture" of not welcoming women (i guess also coz they are packed during friday prayers/taraweeh), or at least i feel uncomfortable myself coz I honestly hate the type of kutbah (hmmm like firebrand kinda speech with local politics (our politics very polarised), how women should behave (favourite topic), some hate mongering (imo) against "others", etc etc always in a scolding tone, never in an inclusive loving manner that to me my religion is) they have at that particular masjid (which of course they have on loud speaker for everyone in the neighbourhood to hear). I'm not proud to say that I have yet to found one that I feel comfortable in, and i have not been looking. I know im guilty of generalising, or even being wary of judgemental people, or yes being judgemental myself of stereotyping the religious community as being the same way-judgemental (yikes); I'm sure there would be a masjid out there with its community that might suit us and we wont know it unless we look for it...

Given our (me and hubby's) personality, our approach to the religious part of life been private and at home, and at a snail's pace So far it suits us. When the time comes when we have kids, the more protective I know I'd be. But I know i dont have the capacity to teach everything to them. Coz I dont know everything.

I do so going to miss the Ramadan atmosphere, and wish that you guys live near so that me and hubby can have that festive & yet educational Ramadany feel (not just a contemplative + food deprived state)... I saw a Malay woman with her child shopping at Hyvee a few months back, but i was too shy to approach her, now i wished i did.

Ramadan and Eid-al-Fitr (we call it Hari Raya/ Aidilfitri) is very important for us back home. We have the weekly breaking of fast together (just family but its easily 30 people at a time, and during eid will be 50 ppl gathering at a place), make cookies, listen to Raya songs, the takbir... luckily there's youtube for us to listen to our version of the eid-al-fitr takbir always can make me cry...

p/s: like Rahma, i too, for the life of me, cant imagine how snorting would invalidate salat like that! its just crazy to think that

Hey Farha, maybe sometime during Ramadan, you (and your husband) could come up to the Twin Cities, and get together with Sharifah and I (and my husband). I'm sure Sharifah knows of some places that have activities, and the masjid near my house usually has iftar on the weekends and taraweeh every night. And during the week, if you go to masjid al huda and hang around after maghrib, people give out coupons for free iftar at a local ME buffet. Last year, they also started accepting the coupons at the local afghan restaurant, and OMGosh, pizza to die for *faints* AbuS and I plan on going to masjid al huda every night during the week this year

I can't offer a place to stay unfortunately (only a one bedroom apartment and a very demanding cat who would never let anyone sleep out on the couch), but we could do something fun and ramadan-y.

Salaam ya Farha, inshaAllah you could visit the Twin Cities during Ramadan. Many places serve iftar dinner and offer the taraweeh prayer. I was only able to make it to one of the taraweeh prayers at Dar el Farouq last year. There is a women who basically runs the women's area at Dar el Farouq, she is Malaysian too. She is married to an American.

Masjid al huda is closer (to me) and apparently as Rahma said, they offer coupons for iftar dinner, so I would definitely recommend going there. I used to go to Friday prayer there a couple of years ago, but unforunately I had to work again on Friday's so I was unable to continue going.

Sorry to say but I too am unable to put anyone up. My son and I live in our family home (that is until Ahmed get's here), but like Rahma said we could still do some fun Ramadany (love that word) thing.

[Ahmeds Girl 0]

I just re-read what I wrote, I wasn't exactly clear. Sorry!

So if I snort when I laugh, and if I were a Muslim, my prayers wouldn't be accepted due to snorting when laughing (not while praying necessarily) cause it sounds like a pig.

Hopefully that's clearer, its Friday, I'm wiped.

Honestly I think he's trying to scare you out of making that noise at all. I did it once when I laughed the first time with him and his mood changed drastically. Eventually he told me that when a woman snorts like that it means she's a sleazebag ####### so he would never want me to make that noise again. Never heard of it pertaining to salat though.

Truly disturbing to think that a man considers a woman to be a 'Sleazebag #######' (or equivalent expression) simply because of the way she laughs.

[caybee 21]

I asked my husband about the laughing and snorting. He told me it's just generally considered unattractive or disrespectful for anyone, male or female, to laugh loudly with their mouth wide open so that all their teeth are showing or they're snorting, and that just applies to the kind of laughter you can control, especially in public. He says it is compared to the sound a donkey makes, which he says Allah does not like (I've asked him why Allah would dislike a sound he created, but I didn't get a clear answer -- maybe someone could help me with that -- though he did say that donkeys bray like that when they see shaytan). We've both certainly lost it on occasion and laughed loudly and uncontrollably. In any case, he's never heard anything about it invalidating the salat.

[doodlebugg 10]

It would be great to have the meat be zabiha AND organic, but if I have to chose between the two, I go for the zabiha. Organic does not necessarily mean humane treatment, just no chemicals in the raising. There are organic factory farms.

Unfortunately for me it's the hormones and the issue of what is fed to the chickens/cows/etc. that is very important since I'm doing this for my physical health so I'm just opting to say bismillah before I eat the meat. My husband's friend from work buys faithfully from a place nearby that is halal so he is going to ask him if it's organic meat but I highly doubt it.

One thing that astounds me is that about 90% of the produce sold at Whole Foods is "conventionally grown". Why on earth would I be willing to pay such a huge markup for something I could buy at a much cheaper market? I bet that most people don't even read the labels and just assume all products from Whole Foods are organically grown. There is a co-op in my area that I could join but it's a lot of money up-front. They deliver organically grown local veggies and fruits once/week to a main center nearby or to your house if you want to pay a higher fee.

Ok so another thing I was thinking about not related to food, my husband has it in his head that he will have to answer for any of my discretions. He's been bringing this up a lot lately and I wondered if anyone else's husband talks about this. Like, if you don't pray 5 times/ day I will be the one to answer for it, etc.

I just re-read what I wrote, I wasn't exactly clear. Sorry!

So if I snort when I laugh, and if I were a Muslim, my prayers wouldn't be accepted due to snorting when laughing (not while praying necessarily) cause it sounds like a pig.

Hopefully that's clearer, its Friday, I'm wiped.

Honestly I think he's trying to scare you out of making that noise at all. I did it once when I laughed the first time with him and his mood changed drastically. Eventually he told me that when a woman snorts like that it means she's a sleazebag ####### so he would never want me to make that noise again. Never heard of it pertaining to salat though.

Truly disturbing to think that a man considers a woman to be a 'Sleazebag #######' (or equivalent expression) simply because of the way she laughs.

I don't think it's disturbing since it's just cultural. What was disturbing was the fact that the entire residential population of his neighborhood banged on his door like they were going to burn us at the stake because I was in the flat alone with him and they didn't know we were married. Yelling went on for hours demanding proof of our marriage and I think I got more evil eyes than anyone has ever gotten in their life. You really have to try to put yourself in their life to understand some of this stuff. I'm sure they find our ways disturbing as well if they haven't lived here for very long.

[Ahmeds Girl 0]

I've lived in Egypt and have had a little insight into the culture. Not all Egyptian men are insensitive enough to use a term like ''Sleazebag #######'' to describe the laugh of a woman they love. Ignorance and insensitivity isn't always 'cultural'.

Regarding the neighbor's behaviour around your marriage, perhaps your marriage was unusual (by Egyptian standards)? That and the neighborhood would have been a factor, for sure.

[doodlebugg 10]

I've lived in Egypt and have had a little insight into the culture. Not all Egyptian men are insensitive enough to use a term like ''Sleazebag #######'' to describe the laugh of a woman they love. Ignorance and insensitivity isn't always 'cultural'.

Regarding the neighbor's behaviour around your marriage, perhaps your marriage was unusual (by Egyptian standards)? That and the neighborhood would have been a factor, for sure.

I don't want to fight with you in the muslims thread. peace.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Humpkin, do you have any store that sells Crescent Halal chicken in your area - http://www.crescenthalal.com/consumer.cfm

Crescent premium birds are raised cage-free, in sunny ventilated barns on Amish farms in Indiana. They are fed only pure grains and soy with no hormones, then processed free from artificial ingredients, food coloring, and preservatives. The end result is a better choice for healthy delicious meals.

Of course, the soy could be a problem. I know soy has been making my sister ill for years due to the hormones, until she stopped eating/drinking it recently.

Also the CSA (community supported agriculture)/fresh veggies are a great thing. They're very popular here in the midwest. It's a great way to support local farmers of all sizes. Oftentimes here, the CSA will let their subscribers visit the farm. My family's (former) farm is now an organic CSA.

[doodlebugg 10]

Humpkin, do you have any store that sells Crescent Halal chicken in your area - http://www.crescenthalal.com/consumer.cfm

Crescent premium birds are raised cage-free, in sunny ventilated barns on Amish farms in Indiana. They are fed only pure grains and soy with no hormones, then processed free from artificial ingredients, food coloring, and preservatives. The end result is a better choice for healthy delicious meals.

Of course, the soy could be a problem. I know soy has been making my sister ill for years due to the hormones, until she stopped eating/drinking it recently.

Also the CSA (community supported agriculture)/fresh veggies are a great thing. They're very popular here in the midwest. It's a great way to support local farmers of all sizes. Oftentimes here, the CSA will let their subscribers visit the farm. My family's (former) farm is now an organic CSA.

I'll look when I go to the halal store next time but it's definitely not in any of our main grocers.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Humpkin, do you have any store that sells Crescent Halal chicken in your area - http://www.crescenthalal.com/consumer.cfm

Crescent premium birds are raised cage-free, in sunny ventilated barns on Amish farms in Indiana. They are fed only pure grains and soy with no hormones, then processed free from artificial ingredients, food coloring, and preservatives. The end result is a better choice for healthy delicious meals.

Of course, the soy could be a problem. I know soy has been making my sister ill for years due to the hormones, until she stopped eating/drinking it recently.

Also the CSA (community supported agriculture)/fresh veggies are a great thing. They're very popular here in the midwest. It's a great way to support local farmers of all sizes. Oftentimes here, the CSA will let their subscribers visit the farm. My family's (former) farm is now an organic CSA.

the chicken we buy is crescent halal, both whole chickens and chicken breasts. the lamb is from a farm in canada that's supposed to be free-range too. (i haven't visited the farm personally, but the description they provided on their website made me feel a lot better about my family eating it.) i don't know anything about where the beef at the halal store we shop at comes from though unfortunately. my husband has bought some a couple times and didn't really care for it too much, so he sticks to lamb and chicken. i thought my findings for the sources of food we've been buying would be a lot more dismal, but in actuality they weren't.

[Ahmed N Tina 2]

Thanks for the back up on the snorting thing! I'm gonna make hubby prove his point so he can see it isn't there. Hopefully he'll get off me about it, for a while.

[amysaid 9]

Ok so another thing I was thinking about not related to food, my husband has it in his head that he will have to answer for any of my discretions. He's been bringing this up a lot lately and I wondered if anyone else's husband talks about this. Like, if you don't pray 5 times/ day I will be the one to answer for it, etc.

yesyesyesyesYES. This has become quite the issue for my husband and I, since we have some difference of opinion on some things, and since I am still coming to terms with some aspects of being a Muslim. He has explained it to me that when the judgement day comes, when they look at my sins, they will ask me why I did this sin, and that it is the responsibility of my father, my brother, and my husband to prevent me from doing these sins. So if I do something wrong, I can blame it on my father, then my brother, then my husband. I couldn't tell you where that comes from, though, if it's Quran or hadith.

[amysaid 9]

the chicken we buy is crescent halal, both whole chickens and chicken breasts. the lamb is from a farm in canada that's supposed to be free-range too. (i haven't visited the farm personally, but the description they provided on their website made me feel a lot better about my family eating it.)

Just curious -- where do you buy your chicken and lamb from? I live in Salem, but drive up to Tigard to the halal store on 99 to go shopping on occasion, but I haven't really checked out the meat. Wondering if there is a better place to buy it from that I am missing out on

[/indent]Of course, the soy could be a problem. I know soy has been making my sister ill for years due to the hormones, until she stopped eating/drinking it recently.

I avoid soy as much as I can. I am 99% sure that soy formula I was fed as a baby led to my hypothyroidism as an adult... And they put so much of it in EVERYTHING these days. Ugh.

[sandinista! 1,816]

the chicken we buy is crescent halal, both whole chickens and chicken breasts. the lamb is from a farm in canada that's supposed to be free-range too. (i haven't visited the farm personally, but the description they provided on their website made me feel a lot better about my family eating it.)

Just curious -- where do you buy your chicken and lamb from? I live in Salem, but drive up to Tigard to the halal store on 99 to go shopping on occasion, but I haven't really checked out the meat. Wondering if there is a better place to buy it from that I am missing out on

[/indent]Of course, the soy could be a problem. I know soy has been making my sister ill for years due to the hormones, until she stopped eating/drinking it recently.

I avoid soy as much as I can. I am 99% sure that soy formula I was fed as a baby led to my hypothyroidism as an adult... And they put so much of it in EVERYTHING these days. Ugh.

there are a couple places we go. the store on 99, by the panda print shop is one, as well as barbur world foods, further north on 99. there's another small somali shop on 99 that we've been to a few times, and a couple in beaverton that are alright.

[HLM 1]

Ok so another thing I was thinking about not related to food, my husband has it in his head that he will have to answer for any of my discretions. He's been bringing this up a lot lately and I wondered if anyone else's husband talks about this. Like, if you don't pray 5 times/ day I will be the one to answer for it, etc.

yesyesyesyesYES. This has become quite the issue for my husband and I, since we have some difference of opinion on some things, and since I am still coming to terms with some aspects of being a Muslim. He has explained it to me that when the judgement day comes, when they look at my sins, they will ask me why I did this sin, and that it is the responsibility of my father, my brother, and my husband to prevent me from doing these sins. So if I do something wrong, I can blame it on my father, then my brother, then my husband. I couldn't tell you where that comes from, though, if it's Quran or hadith.

He is bound to advice you and correct you when you do something wrong out of ignorance -same thing for him; you have to advice him or correct him when he does something wrong- but then it's up to you to take the advice or not; he will not be held accountable if you refuse the advice.

I asked my husband about the laughing and snorting. He told me it's just generally considered unattractive or disrespectful for anyone, male or female, to laugh loudly with their mouth wide open so that all their teeth are showing or they're snorting, and that just applies to the kind of laughter you can control, especially in public. He says it is compared to the sound a donkey makes, which he says Allah does not like (I've asked him why Allah would dislike a sound he created, but I didn't get a clear answer -- maybe someone could help me with that -- though he did say that donkeys bray like that when they see shaytan). We've both certainly lost it on occasion and laughed loudly and uncontrollably. In any case, he's never heard anything about it invalidating the salat.

Allah subhanahu wa talah; has to show you an example of both things he likes and dislikes so He can make it easier for us to recognise between them.