Muslims

[UmmSqueakster 54]

If I'd venture to make broad sweeping statements, the majority position in christianity is that Jesus (as) is of one substance (homoousios) and is equal to the Father. That's what the Council of Nicea was all about - combating what they saw as herasies that Jesus (as) was not of the same substance, and that he was not equal to the father, among other things.

This is the belief of the Catholics, the Orthodox and many of the larger mainline protestant denominations (who all hold the Nicene Creed), and since they make up the largest chunk of christians, I believe it's safe to say that this is the mainline view of christianity.

[Ihavequestions 419]

If I'd venture to make broad sweeping statements, the majority position in christianity is that Jesus (as) is of one substance (homoousios) and is equal to the Father. That's what the Council of Nicea was all about - combating what they saw as herasies that Jesus (as) was not of the same substance, and that he was not equal to the father, among other things.

This is the belief of the Catholics, the Orthodox and many of the larger mainline protestant denominations (who all hold the Nicene Creed), and since they make up the largest chunk of christians, I believe it's safe to say that this is the mainline view of christianity.

I would argue that the Ten Commandments are universal among Christians, #1 being "I am the Lord your God," with a singular "I" as opposed to a plural "We."

[UmmSqueakster 54]

If I'd venture to make broad sweeping statements, the majority position in christianity is that Jesus (as) is of one substance (homoousios) and is equal to the Father. That's what the Council of Nicea was all about - combating what they saw as herasies that Jesus (as) was not of the same substance, and that he was not equal to the father, among other things.

This is the belief of the Catholics, the Orthodox and many of the larger mainline protestant denominations (who all hold the Nicene Creed), and since they make up the largest chunk of christians, I believe it's safe to say that this is the mainline view of christianity.

I would argue that the Ten Commandments are universal among Christians, #1 being "I am the Lord your God," with a singular "I" as opposed to a plural "We."

One of the mysteries of the trinity is that God is singular being with 3 distinct persons (hypostases). It took the early church 400 years to sort it out, but that's the conclusion they reached.

[Ahmed N Tina 2]

If I'd venture to make broad sweeping statements, the majority position in christianity is that Jesus (as) is of one substance (homoousios) and is equal to the Father. That's what the Council of Nicea was all about - combating what they saw as herasies that Jesus (as) was not of the same substance, and that he was not equal to the father, among other things.

This is the belief of the Catholics, the Orthodox and many of the larger mainline protestant denominations (who all hold the Nicene Creed), and since they make up the largest chunk of christians, I believe it's safe to say that this is the mainline view of christianity.

Counldn't have said it better myself. The trinity and man deciding the divination of Jesus (council of Nicea) are the two big problems for me in Christianity (and that there are 2400 types that don't agree). I've had the trinity described to me as a family (Mamma, Pappa, Brother) with one purpose and that of an egg (yolk, white and shell), three parts in one item. No matter how you slice it, there are 3, not 1. The OT states one God, but the NT states 3 parts, so if you take the bible as truth, you must take both OT and NT, not just one or the other.

[Ihavequestions 419]

Counldn't have said it better myself. The trinity and man deciding the divination of Jesus (council of Nicea) are the two big problems for me in Christianity (and that there are 2400 types that don't agree). I've had the trinity described to me as a family (Mamma, Pappa, Brother) with one purpose and that of an egg (yolk, white and shell), three parts in one item. No matter how you slice it, there are 3, not 1. The OT states one God, but the NT states 3 parts, so if you take the bible as truth, you must take both OT and NT, not just one or the other.

Again, I would argue the Ten Commandments, which remain the same no matter which branch of Christianity one adheres to state, specifically, "I am the Lord your God." There is no "we," only "I." Further, I would argue that if you asked a Christian, any Christian, how many Gods there are I can guarantee their answer would be the same: One.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Counldn't have said it better myself. The trinity and man deciding the divination of Jesus (council of Nicea) are the two big problems for me in Christianity (and that there are 2400 types that don't agree). I've had the trinity described to me as a family (Mamma, Pappa, Brother) with one purpose and that of an egg (yolk, white and shell), three parts in one item. No matter how you slice it, there are 3, not 1. The OT states one God, but the NT states 3 parts, so if you take the bible as truth, you must take both OT and NT, not just one or the other.

In college, back in the day before I converted, I did some interfaith dialogue with muslims on campus. One of the muslims asked a question about the trinity, and I proceeded to explain it as an egg. A theology student quickly stepped in and shut me down - an egg isn't an apt analogy, because the Father is the whole, Jesus (as) is the whole and the Holy Spirit is the whole, not a part of the whole.

It isn't monotheism to muslims, because Allah's (swt) personage is ahad, absolute singularity to the nth degree. But it is a type of monotheism, but in that is the mystery of 3 persons in one essense.

[Ahmed N Tina 2]

Counldn't have said it better myself. The trinity and man deciding the divination of Jesus (council of Nicea) are the two big problems for me in Christianity (and that there are 2400 types that don't agree). I've had the trinity described to me as a family (Mamma, Pappa, Brother) with one purpose and that of an egg (yolk, white and shell), three parts in one item. No matter how you slice it, there are 3, not 1. The OT states one God, but the NT states 3 parts, so if you take the bible as truth, you must take both OT and NT, not just one or the other.

Again, I would argue the Ten Commandments, which remain the same no matter which branch of Christianity one adheres to state, specifically, "I am the Lord your God." There is no "we," only "I." Further, I would argue that if you asked a Christian, any Christian, how many Gods there are I can guarantee their answer would be the same: One.

Well, I've been a Christian for 38 years, so I'd say I fall into that category.........

That aside, I'm seeing the absolute awesomeness of the One God, Allah, in Islam. It makes so much more sense. I'm learning more every day and am greatly thankful for the help and guidance I've received in my journey.

God help us all in our search for truth and faith in Him.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Not for all Christians. Most Christians believe in the trinity, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, therefore separating them. In this theory, Jesus is then NOT God, but part of the Godhead. Therefore, again, not the same being who destroyed, wiped out, flooded or any of the other items listed. It is frequently discussed that "Jesus" was referred to in the OT as "the Word of God", again separating Him from God, and the punishments given due to the sin committed at that time.

I have no desire to be part of the argument, but wanted to clear up that, in my opinion, generalization.

True, the sects of Christianity vary in their understanding of the Trinity. Some teach that there are 3 separate Gods, some that there is one God with 3 essences. One need consider the nuance in each interpretation.

No, that's not true. There is only one God, across the board, to each of the more than 2,400 different types of Christians.

One.

Never more than one.

There are Christian sects that don't subscribe to monotheism, just as there are those who, as stated before, do not believe that Jesus is God. I'm not under the impression that any Christian in this thread believes in anything other than monotheism, so I'm happy to stick with issues relevant to that.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

If I'd venture to make broad sweeping statements, the majority position in christianity is that Jesus (as) is of one substance (homoousios) and is equal to the Father. That's what the Council of Nicea was all about - combating what they saw as herasies that Jesus (as) was not of the same substance, and that he was not equal to the father, among other things.

This is the belief of the Catholics, the Orthodox and many of the larger mainline protestant denominations (who all hold the Nicene Creed), and since they make up the largest chunk of christians, I believe it's safe to say that this is the mainline view of christianity.

Counldn't have said it better myself. The trinity and man deciding the divination of Jesus (council of Nicea) are the two big problems for me in Christianity (and that there are 2400 types that don't agree). I've had the trinity described to me as a family (Mamma, Pappa, Brother) with one purpose and that of an egg (yolk, white and shell), three parts in one item. No matter how you slice it, there are 3, not 1. The OT states one God, but the NT states 3 parts, so if you take the bible as truth, you must take both OT and NT, not just one or the other.

Yes, the OT states that there is One God, and never refers to God as "the Father", but that One God includes the persona of Jesus. It's strange to me that so many mainstream sects teach that Jesus should not be considered to also be the jealous, destructive God of the OT if He is God and Christianity calls itself monotheistic. Sounds terribly PC to me. This concept is often used to criticize Islam, contrasting the peaceful Jesus/God of the NT against the warring Arabs in the time of the Prophet Muhammad. Without the separation between the God of the OT, and the "new" God, Jesus, that criticism loses validity.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Virtual wife

[Kenza 1]

I don't know if I should be talking but as for myself....why is it so hard for Christians to believe in one God with many prophets throughout history...at least for a basic understanding and belief

Edited March 9, 2009 by Kenza

[Staashi 371]

As a lifelong christian woman, with 27 years as a mainline protestant and 8 as a Catholic, the subject of the Trinity has been a doctrine I was raised with and believed in my whole life. Jenn, thank you for bringing up the Council of Nicea - which defined the faith of the Catholic Church and all mainline christian denominations. God is always God, but He has 3 forms - God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

Every week at mass, we recite this as our profession of faith:

The Nicene Creed -

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[childress_london 3]

Jesus never said he was God. He said he was God's son. He prayed to God and he told people to obey and love God, not himself. He also called himself a prophet and he spoke of past prophets. He said that the miracles he performed were not from him, but from God working through him. Jesus had trouble performing miracles if the people did not believe. Before he died on the cross, he cried out to God. Why would he cry out to himself as a third person? Jesus sits on the right hand of God and not where God sits. I believe that Jesus was holy and from God, but he is not God.

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

UmmSqueakster' wrote='Mar 9 2009,

I was speaking to Tina from the perspective that she had converted to Islam, but even if she hasn't, my advice is still the same. She had a question about nail polish and salat, so deserves to know what the fuqaha have to say about it. She didn't ask how her current faith views nail polish.

But she hasn't and I knew that. My reply was specifically directed to her comment that she was going to miss wearing nail polish, and being pretty sure that she hadn't yet reverted (since I talked to her not more than 2 weeks ago and was pretty certain she would have mentioned it if she had) I was telling her not to worry in advance... All the fuqaha was posted long before my simple comment..

UmmSqueakster' wrote='Mar 9 2009, If you were speaking about her making shahada when you were speaking about believing in her heart, then there was a misunderstanding. Just taking your post on face value, to me it seemed that you were advising people to only follow the tenents of islam that they believed in their heart. This is the wishy washy relativism VW was speaking of. If that is not what you were saying, then I apologize for getting it wrong.

Seek first to understand, then to be understood. I even did a double check about whether or not she had converted before I defended my position. Even her response wasn't enough to quell the mortar fire.

K previously wrote: And there is an ORDER in which you submerge yourself into your new faith! That's why the 5 pillars come in an order! Haj doesn't come before Shahada.

UmmSqueakster' wrote='Mar 9 2009, Once shahada is made, then all 5 pillars are incumbant. If you convert to islam during zuhr prayer, you're suppose to pray zuhr prayer before the time is over. If you convert to islam during Ramadan, you're suppose to start fasting that very day. And once you convert, you should inventory your wealth and begin to give zakat. Hajj is the only one where there is a little bit more leniancy, at least for the shafi'is.

And where did I state this is incorrect? You make my point when you wrote... "Once shahada is made"... that's exactly what I said. Shahada comes first.

K previously wrote: Islam requires Muslims to discuss religion ONLY WITH THE BEST of MANNERS. And this should extend from Muslim to Muslim, not only Muslim to Non-Muslim. I'm sure those who react with PIOUS VENOM to anything they read and don't either understand or agree with might not realize that their lack of manners (adab) weakens any possibility they have of impressing anyone with their claimed "knowledge"... if the person listening has the foggiest notion of how Muslims are SUPPOSED to act.

UmmSqueakster' wrote='Mar 9 2009, When you're giving advice to others, it's best also to follow it yourself. When you type in all caps, that's considered yelling, which isn't the best adab either

Did I write everything in caps? (Which could be considered "yelling"...) No. I used caps for emphasis of specific words. Do you like underlining better? Or is there a negative connotation to that too? And no I am not shouting your name (or mine) when I put it in bold...

Again, seek first to understand, and then to be understood.

I am seldom offended by people with strong opinions, that I totally disagree with, when they are given with understanding, with kindness, and with just a tiny wee bit of empathy for the people who may not agree, and humility in case they misunderstood the other person's point of view. And I find nothing weak about presenting an opinion in this manner.

But when someone throws a bomb out of left field at me for trying to be supportive of my friend while she is learning about Islam then I don't stand there and humbly take a thrashing for it.

I never said Muslims don't have to follow the "rules" unless they believe them. I wasn't even offended by that point of view. I know actually believing in the things that are routinely done , and knowing the whys and wherefores are not very high on the list of things Muslims wonder about.

Had anyone asked if that was what I meant, before attacking, and I had said no, would all of this been necessary?

I've learned a lot from this experience. Mainly that my head hurts and I don't have to beat it on the wall to make it feel good when I stop.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You need to calm down and take your own advice to seek first to understand, and then to be understood. You are a big part of your problem in that you become severely defensive and employ hyperbole when your advice is not taken at face value. People will disagree with you, but your over reaction, characterizing their responses as "bomb throwing", "thrashing, "jihad", "attacks", etc., do little to support your views, do more to create misunderstandings, and overall, show you to have less confidence in your advice than you think you project.

We can and will disagree over issues of philosophy and practice, and sometimes those disagreements become heated, but there is no need to become so worked up that you get headaches. No one intends for that to happen, and no one need take responsibility for your reaction other than yourself.

One more thing; it is not absolutely necessary to take shahada to be Muslim. While the shahada is the conscious oath of faith, and a pillar of Islam, one can take shahada and call themselves Muslim all they want, but still find themselves outside of God's favor. Muslims are those who truly believe in Him, surrender their will to Him unconditionally, and are willing to sacrifice for Him in service to others. Allah tells us that not all Muslims will enter jannah, and that there will be those who are accepted who do not call themselves Muslim or never heard of Muhammed. The bottom line is, Allah is not as concerned with labels as we tend to be. He is far more concerned with acts, beliefs and sincerity. They are examples of His Intent in their daily lives, and that is something that can be done before, after or without shahada.

UmmSqueakster' wrote='Mar 9 2009,

I was speaking to Tina from the perspective that she had converted to Islam, but even if she hasn't, my advice is still the same. She had a question about nail polish and salat, so deserves to know what the fuqaha have to say about it. She didn't ask how her current faith views nail polish.

But she hasn't and I knew that. My reply was specifically directed to her comment that she was going to miss wearing nail polish, and being pretty sure that she hadn't yet reverted (since I talked to her not more than 2 weeks ago and was pretty certain she would have mentioned it if she had) I was telling her not to worry in advance... All the fuqaha was posted long before my simple comment..

UmmSqueakster' wrote='Mar 9 2009, If you were speaking about her making shahada when you were speaking about believing in her heart, then there was a misunderstanding. Just taking your post on face value, to me it seemed that you were advising people to only follow the tenents of islam that they believed in their heart. This is the wishy washy relativism VW was speaking of. If that is not what you were saying, then I apologize for getting it wrong.

Seek first to understand, then to be understood. I even did a double check about whether or not she had converted before I defended my position. Even her response wasn't enough to quell the mortar fire.

K previously wrote: And there is an ORDER in which you submerge yourself into your new faith! That's why the 5 pillars come in an order! Haj doesn't come before Shahada.

UmmSqueakster' wrote='Mar 9 2009, Once shahada is made, then all 5 pillars are incumbant. If you convert to islam during zuhr prayer, you're suppose to pray zuhr prayer before the time is over. If you convert to islam during Ramadan, you're suppose to start fasting that very day. And once you convert, you should inventory your wealth and begin to give zakat. Hajj is the only one where there is a little bit more leniancy, at least for the shafi'is.

And where did I state this is incorrect? You make my point when you wrote... "Once shahada is made"... that's exactly what I said. Shahada comes first.

K previously wrote: Islam requires Muslims to discuss religion ONLY WITH THE BEST of MANNERS. And this should extend from Muslim to Muslim, not only Muslim to Non-Muslim. I'm sure those who react with PIOUS VENOM to anything they read and don't either understand or agree with might not realize that their lack of manners (adab) weakens any possibility they have of impressing anyone with their claimed "knowledge"... if the person listening has the foggiest notion of how Muslims are SUPPOSED to act.

UmmSqueakster' wrote='Mar 9 2009, When you're giving advice to others, it's best also to follow it yourself. When you type in all caps, that's considered yelling, which isn't the best adab either

Did I write everything in caps? (Which could be considered "yelling"...) No. I used caps for emphasis of specific words. Do you like underlining better? Or is there a negative connotation to that too? And no I am not shouting your name (or mine) when I put it in bold...

Again, seek first to understand, and then to be understood.

I am seldom offended by people with strong opinions, that I totally disagree with, when they are given with understanding, with kindness, and with just a tiny wee bit of empathy for the people who may not agree, and humility in case they misunderstood the other person's point of view. And I find nothing weak about presenting an opinion in this manner.

But when someone throws a bomb out of left field at me for trying to be supportive of my friend while she is learning about Islam then I don't stand there and humbly take a thrashing for it.

I never said Muslims don't have to follow the "rules" unless they believe them. I wasn't even offended by that point of view. I know actually believing in the things that are routinely done , and knowing the whys and wherefores are not very high on the list of things Muslims wonder about.

Had anyone asked if that was what I meant, before attacking, and I had said no, would all of this been necessary?

I've learned a lot from this experience. Mainly that my head hurts and I don't have to beat it on the wall to make it feel good when I stop.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Virtual wife

[childress_london 3]

The topic of religion is a very emotional one for most people, but if you choose to discuss it, then I think it should be done with patience and love. I think we can state our beliefs and opinions without personal attacks. We have discovered that even people within the same religion will have differing beliefs. This is because religion is such a personal, individual thing. It is really between a person and God, for He is the one that judges a person's heart and nobody else.