American's view on Islam

[sarahaziz 0]

Sarah,

It seems to me that, as a child of parents of different religions, you have personal experience with this as well. Do you talk to your parents about it? I wonder if the issue is more polarizing today than it was a generation ago?

Yeah it's been a crazy journey to have 1 parent muslim and 1 christian. They came to the USA when they were young and now they are modern and "Americanized" (They are aware they live in a free country and it's their duty not the government to keep their kids inline) in a sense where they are open to anything but they do believe in strong morals for a daughter to have. They are very strict in a personal sense with me about marriage, dating, work, school. My father a strong muslim but he doesn't portray it unless you asked him specifically about Islam, in other words he never really pushed islam on me. My mom is proud to be Christian and she always took me to church and told me about God and Christianity. When I was little my dads mother taught me about Islam and I followed it and prayed with her I knew the surahs and I knew the basics for Islam. As I grew up Islam religion didn't appeal to me and I felt very empty when around Muslims and that is just me. I accept Christianity and a bit of Judaism. My marriage with my back then b/f was already pre-planned between my Grandma's Generation so I'm guessing the obvious that they didn't care If I was christian or not because I went to church there since I was younger before marriage but I never talk about Christianity out of respect and Algerian Law. Algerians are real kind back home they don't make a big deal out of religion from the village we are from. With my husbands family in Algiers who are strict muslims ( I'm talking full beard, whole Imam costume) They still shake my hand even a couple of times tryed to hug me!!! Which is nice they aren't ignorant! God blessed me Greatly.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Its against Algerian law for a muslima to marry outside of Islam....mudawana.......

let's not confuse algerian law for islam.

Thank you, Charles. At least you get it.

Its against Algerian law for a muslima to marry outside of Islam....mudawana.......

let's not confuse algerian law for islam.

my point is that virtual wife would not have the liberty that she has had in the USA...she is a product of an american upbringing not a mena one and her views are absolutely not shared by the majority of muslims......She has the freedom to do as she pleases because she is a 3rd generation american arab,,,,,she never would have been able to marry a christian in many mena countries even up until today, While she makes a valid case, very very few practicing muslims would agree with her and the law also reflects that

Wahrania, you keep saying that I had an American upbringing when I've told you I did not. You are either calling me a liar or you are in deep denial about how much effect ignoring the facts has on your own crebility. The bottom line is you are the johnny-come-lately American convert who hasn't a clue, and I'm the multicultural born Arab Muslim who did not discover Islam and the ME later in life. It's just same ole, same ole to me, nothing exotic or strange.

Beyond that, I'm not going to play the ethnic card; I've met too many non-Arab converts who are so desparate to be accepted as Arabs that they get really stupid. Son't go there. That you are constantly finding your stereotypes about MENA being burst by people on this board who have different experiences than you have has is very telling. That you are so resistent to anyone having information you don't have makes you very trying.

You have absolutely missed the point because you can't get past the idea of what counties have as law as being separate from what ISLAM has as law. They are not the same. You also bring such a narrow, biased, and ngative view of life in MENA to the discussion, that you impose upon everyone who doesnt comport with it to explain their story so you can judge them as authentic or not, as if you have the authority or depth to do so.

You dont.

Just relax and try to accept the idea that the center of the Muslim world is not Algeria, and all knowlege of MENA is not held by you.

Edited March 2, 2008 by Virtual wife

[Caladan 19]

Algerian law is not Islam! This should not be all that hard! Likewise, the second Amendment is not part of Judaism! The primary system is not part of Buddhism!

AAAAAAAAAHHH.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I feel your pain.

On the positiv side, here's an oldie, but goodie.

A WIFE

By getting married you are not just getting a wife, you are getting your whole world. From now until the rest of your days your wife will be your partner, your companion, and your best friend.

She will share your moments, your days, and your years. She will share your joys and sorrows, your successes and failures, your dreams and your fears. When you are ill, she will take the best care of you; when you need help, she will do all she can for you; when you have a secret, she will keep it; when you need advice, she will give you the best advice. She will always be with you: when you wake up in the morning the first thing your eyes will see will be hers; during the day, she will be with you, if for some time she is not with you by her physical body, she will be thinking of you, praying for you with all her heart, mind, and soul; when you go to sleep at night, the last thing your eyes will see will be her; and when you are asleep you will still see her in your dreams. In short, she will be your whole world and you will be her whole world.

The best description that I personally have ever read describing the closeness of the spouses to each other is the Qur'anic verse which says: "They are your garments and you are their garments." (Surah Al Baqarah 2:187). Indeed, spouses are like garments to each other because they provide one another with the protection, the comfort, the cover, the support, and the adornment that garments provide to humans. Just imagine a journey in the winter of Alaska without garments! Our spouses provide us with the same level of comfort, protection, cover, and support in the journey of our lives on this earth as garments would do in the Alaskan journey.

The relationship between the spouses is the most amazing of all human relations: the amount of love and affection, intimacy and closeness, mercy and compassion, peace and tranquillity that fills the hearts of the spouses is simply inexplicable. The only rational explanation for these most amazing of all human feelings is that: it is an act of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, "And Allah has made for you Mates (and Companions of your own nature ..." (Surah Al Nahl 16:72)

Only our Almighty Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala in His Infinite Power, Boundless Mercy, and Great Wisdom can create and ingrain these amazing and blessed feelings in the hearts of the spouses. In fact Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is reminding those who search for His signs in the universe that these feelings in the hearts of the spouses are among the signs that should guide humans to His existence as He says in the Qur'an, "And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquillity with them and He has put love and mercy between your hearts: verily in that are signs for those who reflect." (Surah Al Rum 30:21)

But Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala knows that the human heart is not a static entity, it is sometimes weak and at times dynamic. Feelings can and do change with time. Love may wither and fade away. The marital bond might weaken if not properly cared for. Happiness in marriage cannot be taken for granted; continuous happiness requires constant giving from both sides. For the tree of marital love to remain alive and keep growing, the soil has to be sustained, maintained, watered and nurtured.

Remember that our Prophet Muhammad Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam had found the time to go out to the desert and race with his wife Aisha. She outran him but later after she had gained some weight, he outran her. Remember that the Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam took his wife to watch the young Ethiopians playing and dancing their folk dances. The show of emotions is necessary to keep the marital bond away from rusting and disintegrating. Remember that you will be rewarded by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala for any emotions you show to your wife as the Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam said "One would be rewarded for anything that he does seeking the pleasure of Allah even the food that he puts in the mouth of his wife"

Never underestimate the importance of seemingly little things as putting food in your wife's mouth, opening the car door for her, etc. Remember that the Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam used to extend his knee to his wife to assist her up to ride the camel.

Try to always find some time for both of you to pray together. Strengthening the bond between you and Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is the best guarantee that your own marital bond would always remain strong. Having peace with Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala will always result in having more peace at home.

Remember that the Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam gave glad tidings for those couples who wake up at night to pray together. The Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam even urged the spouse who rises up first to wake the other spouse up, even by splashing cold water on his/her face.

Always try your best to be good to your wife by words and by deeds. Talk to her, smile to her, seek her advice, ask for her opinion, spend quality time with her and always remember that the Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam said, "The best of you are those who are best to their wives"

Finally, it is common that spouses vow to love and honor their spouses until death do them part. I do believe that this vow is good or even great, but not enough! It is not enough that you love your wife. You have to love what she loves as well. Her family, her loved ones must also become your loved ones. Don't be like my colleague who was unhappy about his wife's parents coming to visit for few weeks. He candidly said to her "I don't like your parents." Naturally she angrily looked at him straight in the eye and said, "I don't like yours either." Also, it is not enough that you love her until death do you part. Love should never end and we do believe there is life after death where those who did righteousness in this world will be joined by their spouses (Surah Al Zukhruf 43:70) and offsprings.

The best example in this regard is the Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam whose love for Khadija, his wife of 25 years, extended to include all those she loved; this love of his continued even after her death. It was many years after her death and he never forgot her and whenever a goat was slaughtered in his house he would send portions of it to Khadija's family and friends and whenever he felt that the visitor at the door might be Khadija's sister Hala, he would pray saying, "O Allah let it be Hala."

Author unknown

[caybee 21]

I feel your pain.

On the positiv side, here's an oldie, but goodie.

Nice. Good advice, and it works both ways. Thank you for this.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Its against Algerian law for a muslima to marry outside of Islam....mudawana.......

let's not confuse algerian law for islam.

Thank you, Charles. At least you get it.

Its against Algerian law for a muslima to marry outside of Islam....mudawana.......

let's not confuse algerian law for islam.

my point is that virtual wife would not have the liberty that she has had in the USA...she is a product of an american upbringing not a mena one and her views are absolutely not shared by the majority of muslims......She has the freedom to do as she pleases because she is a 3rd generation american arab,,,,,she never would have been able to marry a christian in many mena countries even up until today, While she makes a valid case, very very few practicing muslims would agree with her and the law also reflects that

Wahrania, you keep saying that I had an American upbringing when I've told you I did not. You are either calling me a liar or you are in deep denial about how much effect ignoring the facts has on your own crebility. The bottom line is you are the johnny-come-lately American convert who hasn't a clue, and I'm the multicultural born Arab Muslim who did not discover Islam and the ME later in life. It's just same ole, same ole to me, nothing exotic or strange.

Beyond that, I'm not going to play the ethnic card; I've met too many non-Arab converts who are so desparate to be accepted as Arabs that they get really stupid. Son't go there. That you are constantly finding your stereotypes about MENA being burst by people on this board who have different experiences than you have has is very telling. That you are so resistent to anyone having information you don't have makes you very trying.

You have absolutely missed the point because you can't get past the idea of what counties have as law as being separate from what ISLAM has as law. They are not the same. You also bring such a narrow, biased, and ngative view of life in MENA to the discussion, that you impose upon everyone who doesnt comport with it to explain their story so you can judge them as authentic or not, as if you have the authority or depth to do so.

You dont.

Just relax and try to accept the idea that the center of the Muslim world is not Algeria, and all knowlege of MENA is not held by you.

The reality is that muslimas in arab countries do not marry outside of Islam. Its forbidden by law in most MENA countries.. The fact you did it is because you lived stateside. You would not have been able to freely marry a copt in Egypt or as a Muslima do the same in any MENA country I can think of. You can go on and on forever. The reality is much different. I am not doubting your "arabness". I think you just do not see the relevance of you simply having a greater amount of freedom stateside.....

By the way , this is an immigration forum.Why don't you post a timeline?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You keep tying to settle me in the states, but I do hav access to planes, trains, and automobiles. My husband was Lebanese. I married formally, and Islamically in Lebanon. Check your world map, sis; it aint in the states.

BTW, I'm not in the US now. Funny, how I leave there from time to time.

Today, I remembered how clueless and obsessive you were about sarahaziz when she first came on the scene. You repeated meaningless, annoying dribble about her then, too. That seems to be your style. I'll get used to it, and you'll get over it, insha'allah.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

You keep tying to settle me in the states, but I do hav access to planes, trains, and automobiles. My husband was Lebanese. I married formally, and Islamically in Lebanon. Check your world map, sis; it aint in the states.

BTW, I'm not in the US now. Funny, how I leave there from time to time.

Today, I remembered how clueless and obsessive you were about sarahaziz when she first came on the scene. You repeated meaningless, annoying dribble about her then, too. That seems to be your style. I'll get used to it, and you'll get over it, insha'allah.

still no timeline....I am wondering,,,,,

[doodlebugg 10]

LOL Bridget I didn't really gather what the OP was about much so I was following the gamut of topics expressed

I get what you're saying And obviously, though we disagree it's cool to be able to have a nice discussion.

Now! There was another question a bazillion (the techincal term) posts ago about prohibition of polygamy in the Bible. People are always like "oh but Abraham, David, Solomon, etc did it" and "Oh, but in Samuel G-d says he delivered Saul's wives and all of Saul's possessions to David so it must be OK." The failure of this logic though is that all of these men were sinning at the point in which they engaged in these acts. David, yes, was given control over all that Saul had but the expectation was to do better and to actually follow G-d. David was not doing well to kill the husband of Bethsheba and take her as a wife. Abraham was sinning by not following the instructions of G-d and to wait for the son G-d had promised him with SARAH. Even Solomon, for all his wisdom, lost his kingdom through his sinning. "16: But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way. 17: Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold" (Deut. 17: 16-17). This prohibition was not heeded at ALL by Solomon or those who took multiples.

Malachai 2: "14: Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15: And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth."

A marriage is a covenant and is not to be tampered with. G-d gave Adam one wife, Eve. he did not take other wives. In Genesis 4:19 we have the first departure form this, which is Lamach who was also mentioned to be murderous, etc. (Gen 4:22-3).

Ex. 21:10-11 provides Mosaic Law regulation of polygamy, but Mosaic Law also regulated things like divorce. Regulation does not make it preferable or even liked by G-d, nor does it make it part of G-d desire or plan.

Gen 2:24: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh" is the original plan by G-d. A man cannot be two (or more) fleshes based on this model. This was also brought up by Yeshua in Matt. 19:6/Mark 10:8. Matt 3-9 deals with divorce, but also with the nature of marriage and what is and is not permissable versus the plan or will of G-d:

"3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?” 4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5 and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6 “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” 7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?” 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” "

Isaac was deceived by Laban who is ever evil in his heart to take Leah before Rachel. There are examples of men who took multiple wives though it was highly disliked and against the original plan. So, it falls under highly disliked. It's not really a decent argument to come from the standpoint of Islam where it is permissible and not makrooh and try to say it's permissable and acceptable in the Bible. That's like someone trying to argue that it's fine and wonderful to get divorced and totally part of G-d plan for marriage.

As an interesting aside, Islam permits a couple to remarry after divorce only if she marry another person first then dissolve that marriage. The Torah forbids this explicitly and only permits remarriage of a couple if she has not remarried.

btw I missed this one but per Islam none of the prophets ever sinned. I know it may look that way from the books that you quote from but remember that muslims believe these books to have changed from their original status. I don't want to debate it but just thought I'd throw that out there so that you'd know why we point to the prophets actions.

[doodlebugg 10]

You keep tying to settle me in the states, but I do hav access to planes, trains, and automobiles. My husband was Lebanese. I married formally, and Islamically in Lebanon. Check your world map, sis; it aint in the states.

BTW, I'm not in the US now. Funny, how I leave there from time to time.

Today, I remembered how clueless and obsessive you were about sarahaziz when she first came on the scene. You repeated meaningless, annoying dribble about her then, too. That seems to be your style. I'll get used to it, and you'll get over it, insha'allah.

still no timeline....I am wondering,,,,,

wahrania half the people in here don't have a timeline. A lot don't know how to make it for some reason. Trust me I've tried to relay the message that it's useful for others if you fill it in, since that's a big part of how this site works, but others deliberately don't fill it in because they don't want people commenting on it. Think about it, for someone like vw, who constantly used to get attacked, why would she ever throw fuel on the fire?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

still no timeline....I am wondering,,,,,

Don't waste your time. I don't post it anymore. It's as simple as that.

[sandinista! 1,816]

regulation, or strong disliking, is still not outlawing. if i'm not mistaken, i believe it was gershom ben judah, in the 11th century, who actually banned polygamy for rabbinic jews (unless a man got special permission from 100 rabbis in 3 countries). as well, i don't believe israeli jews are allowed to practice polygamy, but polygamous yemenite jews were allowed to all immigrate. they had been practicing polygamy on into the 20th century. not that this matters much anyways, since christianity is different and allows all kinds of things judaism doesn't. they aren't parallel at all, from what christians are allowed to eat for breakfast, to the most fundamental tenets. martin luther stated that he could find nothing in the scriptures expressly banning polygamy.

"On February 14, 1650, the parliament at Nürnberg decreed that, because so many men were killed during the Thirty Years’ War, the churches for the following ten years could not admit any man under the age of 60 into a monastery. Priests and ministers not bound by any monastery were allowed to marry. Lastly, the decree stated that every man was allowed to marry up to ten women. The men were admonished to behave honorably, provide for their wives properly, and prevent animosity among them." i'm sure this was strongly disliked as well, but nevertheless found to be permissible given the circumstances and their belief that it was not directly condemned or outlawed.

and it was jacob who was betrayed by laban, not isaac. i haven't seen anyone trying to argue this from islam's standpoint either-if someone has, i must have missed that post, but regardless, you are right that it's completely pointless as well.

Sorry! you're 100% correct, it is Jacob and i don't know why I typed Isaac.

I didn't say it was outlawed, I said it was disliked and not the "plan." What people actually do rarely seems to go along with G-d's plan, so examples of polygamy in history, even within the Tanakh, don't really stand. Jews made a golden calf while Moses was away, and that is not precedent for using anything like amulets today.

I happen to disagree with you that Christianity and Judaism aren't parallel. As a Torah-observant "christian" I know I am not alone-- there are many others. Many attend Orthodox Synagogues though as mainstream Christianity doesn't like being told they are following tradition in general. There is nothing to make pork permissable (Peter's dream usually being cited but it is interestingly taken out of context to make it so, and I challenge anyone to find where Peter ever ate pork out of the dream) nor a single example of anyone in the New Testament ever eating pork.. and I challenge anyone to find a biblical NT person who actually eats pork (or doesn't keep the Mosaic law or even preaches against it. I imagine most people haven't realized Paul continued and encouraged sacrificing in the Temple, or that all NT peoples still kept the feasts and holydays of the Jews and not the "Christian" holidays that never existed in the Bible..) But this is, of course, a seperate argument.

i know you knew it was isaac and i should have worded things different to avoid making it sound as though i thought it were you saying it was outlawed, because you didn't say any such thing, others did. i have no interest whatsoever in defining christianity for anyone, christian or not. but for argument's sake, your torah-observant practices and beliefs are markedly different from the beliefs of a lot of christians all over the world, including in this discussion, so in the context of those who believe the laws of judaism don't particularly pertain to them, the discussion is different because they're coming at it from a different place, where torah observance doesn't hold the same significance to them as it would to you, or someone who is jewish. regardless of anything, it's still interesting reading how people reach markedly different conclusions on the matter. for you, in your belief system would that gershom ben judah fellow's ruling have any significance to you, or no?

[Nasturtium 500]

i know you knew it was isaac and i should have worded things different to avoid making it sound as though i thought it were you saying it was outlawed, because you didn't say any such thing, others did. i have no interest whatsoever in defining christianity for anyone, christian or not. but for argument's sake, your torah-observant practices and beliefs are markedly different from the beliefs of a lot of christians all over the world, including in this discussion, so in the context of those who believe the laws of judaism don't particularly pertain to them, the discussion is different because they're coming at it from a different place, where torah observance doesn't hold the same significance to them as it would to you, or someone who is jewish. regardless of anything, it's still interesting reading how people reach markedly different conclusions on the matter. for you, in your belief system would that gershom ben judah fellow's ruling have any significance to you, or no?

Yes, it's hard to sometimes tease out culture from religion at times, especially when culture has been so integrated into a religion for the majority of its time (I hope that makes sense-- I realize that's a wordy way of explaining it but I'm tired and can't think of a better way right now. I just got done rewriting the book of Esther for a Purim play in Dr Seuss rhyme. My head is filled with things like "Would he? Could he? Should he go? I'm not sure, maybe yes-- maybe no."). I grew up in a standard non-denominational Christian household, so I'm really pretty familiar (as in 100% ) with mainstream views. What made the difference for me was thinking and wondering about contradictions and then realizing certain key (and obvious if you really look) things, including actual dietary and festival practices in the NT, etc., solves them if you stay Torah-observant and know your Torah. There's a lot of talk about "G-d not changing" only to throw G-d out the window and do whatever you want and use 2-3 out of context verses to support this But to each their own, I guess.

Anyway, on to your question. Really? No, I can't imagine Gershom ben Judah's ruling holding much of anything for me unless he had good proof from the Tanakh that it was illegal. My basic feeling on any of the rabbincal teaching from the Talmud and in general is: some have merit, some don't-- just like anything else. Even Yeshua in the NT indicated some rabbis were correct in the Talmud and some were incorrect. So no, I don't think his ruling makes a difference religiously, although I would imagine in this case (this case being in "the West") that legality could win out over something highly disliked.. since it's not a "necessary" thing, it would be better to default to "obeying law of the land." I've seen similar arguments given for Muslims not practicing polygyny where it isn't legal to do so (especially since that denies the full Islamic rights of legality to the second, tertiary, etc wives.)

BTW, I've never said so, but your son's picture is cute.

(ETA- -and yes, I realize it's no longer in your siggy, I just thought to mention it since I was talking to you.)

Edited March 3, 2008 by julianna

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

Do Muslims ever convert and become Christians?

YES! My husband left islam when he was 19. He accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior. That is the greatest thing that attracted me to him ... about his heart and faith for GOD. -Tam

[sarahaziz 0]

Do Muslims ever convert and become Christians?

YES! My husband left islam when he was 19. He accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior. That is the greatest thing that attracted me to him ... about his heart and faith for GOD. -Tam

Amin